Am I missing the point about tuition fees?

[Lincoln Imp]

Would there be a saving to the public purse if the increased fees led to a reduction in the number of students wanting to go on utterly useless degree courses in such things as stationery, philately and applied binge-drinking?

 

[El Presidente]

Would there be a saving to the public purse if the increased fees led to a reduction in the number of students wanting to go on utterly useless degree courses in such things as stationery, philately and applied binge-drinking?

Doubt it, they will be unemployed for even longer without any qualifications.

 

[severnside gull]

overpaid health administrators replaced by doctors who will spend their time on administration, rather than providing medical treatment.

if not already the case I fear this will increasingly be THE truism describing vast swathes of our impoverished welfare state

 

[HovaGirl]

It appears you haven't thought through what the outcomes are likely to be of the Tory changes. Local GPs will prioritise those services that bring in the most money and expend the least. How are hospitals going to be able to plan future strategies when the GPs that they service will have different priorities.

It will also create administrators out of doctors which seems the wrong direction to be going in. The NHS isn't perfect but its far better than the tory alternative.

As for your assertion that no party would want to dismantly the NHS. What you should have said is that no party would publicly admit to wanting to dismantle the NHS. Unfortunatley, we are probably too far down the route of profit centres and marketplaces within the organisation to ever go back. Thanks to the conservatives.

I haven't actually said anything about the Tory changes. It would be political suicide for any party to dismantle the NHS.

Having said that, I quite like the Greek system, but that only works if you have private health insurance. Greece has an NHS, called IKA. Patients can consult their doctor or polyclinic for a flat fee of 3 euros. To be honest, I don't know what happens after that. But everybody pays this simple fee.

If you have private insurance, a doctor's consultation is 60 euros and lasts one hour. Perhaps shorter consultations are available. If you want blood tests, scans, x-rays, you can have them almost immediately or within a day, in sparkling new hospitals and specialist "shops". Antibiotics are available without prescription as are many other drugs, including Viagra. Many doctors work long, long hours, at the polyclinics in the morning, then perhaps as surgeons in the afternoon, then for private consultations in the evening. They have to do this to earn a decent wage, otherwise, their salary is not much more than 1,000 euros a month at the lowest level. Many of them have trained in England, or the USA and they all have to work in the countryside or on an island for at least a year before they can work in Athens. Otherwise the islands and countryside would have no doctors. The same is true of teachers. It's a very different system and takes some getting used to.

 

[HovaGirl]

Would there be a saving to the public purse if the increased fees led to a reduction in the number of students wanting to go on utterly useless degree courses in such things as stationery, philately and applied binge-drinking?

If you really mean useless courses like the "Mickey Mouse" courses people refer to, then, yes, because those tutors would be out of a job and would not be paid from the public purse. The electric, phone and computer bills would go down, etc, etc!

 

[bhaexpress]

Doubt it, they will be unemployed for even longer without any qualifications.

Given the number of unemployed graduates not sure if that's strictly true.

 

[Gwylan]

Would there be a saving to the public purse if the increased fees led to a reduction in the number of students wanting to go on utterly useless degree courses in such things as stationery, philately and applied binge-drinking?

Would people really want to go on a course on philately? When I was about 10. I learned that philately would get you nowhere.

 

[bhaexpress]

If you really mean useless courses like the "Mickey Mouse" courses people refer to, then, yes, because those tutors would be out of a job and would not be paid from the public purse. The electric, phone and computer bills would go down, etc, etc!

One of the core problems is that universities have been encouraged to create new courses so that the government can massage the unemployment figures. They'd rather people were in some sort of training or education and frankly they don't care whether course is of any use or not. I spent a year as a full time student getting an HNC (and I got an extra £10 a week on top of my dole money). At the end of the day on top of my dole, my extra £10 a week there was the cost of my training. The course was utterly pointless and as there were a few people on it who had working in IT previously we all pointed out the shortcomings several times not only the the administrators at the college but also to the government body responsible for overseeing the course. It goes without saying that we were totally ignored mainly because all those concerned were too busy looking after their own position. I might add that twenty one people started the course but only nine finished it. Of that nine only four including myself have jobs in IT. Two at least have jobs because of their previous experience rather than their HNC which frankly no employer has been the slightest bit interested in. The college's main concern was that everybody stayed for the first six weeks of the course so that they could claim full payment from the government, after that they didn't give a damn.

At the end of the day I have little doubt that this attitude is prevalent in all areas of higher education so if this government wants to bring down costs rather than loading it on students they do reassess the whole situation and rationalise the entire system.

However,as civil servants look after their own I can't see this happening but the rot starts at the top. There wouldn't be so many 'frivolous' degrees if they weren't being promoted by people who are looking after their won status first.

 

[ROSM]

In an attempt to get some facts in this debate it may be beneficial if those spouting about mickey mouse degrees could give us some examples of what they believe fall into this category and what percentage of students take them as opposed to what they believe are valid degrees?

 

[severnside gull]

The college's main concern was that everybody stayed for the first six weeks of the course so that they could claim full payment from the government, after that they didn't give a damn.

At the end of the day I have little doubt that this attitude is prevalent in all areas of higher education

just as a point of information, Further Education (HNC/NVQ) institutions are only funded for students who complete a course

 

[Jim D]

.....It will also create administrators out of doctors which seems the wrong direction to be going in.....

...Still, you'll get what you want ... overpaid health administrators replaced by doctors who will spend their time on administration.....

I can't see this at all. Any sensible doctor (and I assume most of them are) would employ an administrator to handle all this stuff. It will just mean a transfer from the PCT to the GP consortia. Nothing will change.

 

[eastterracemike]

It would of course be completely cynical to suggest the Government is using the umbrella of financial crisis to push through an ideological programme which it might not be able to force at other times.

Exactly. Lets also remember who is responsible for all this in the first place - those wonderful bankers who were about as irresponsible with our money as the tax-dodging high st names who are registered in the cayman islds etc and who could avoid all the CUTS if they paid what is due.

 

[ROKERITE]

Exactly. Lets also remember who is responsible for all this in the first place - those wonderful bankers who were about as irresponsible with our money as the tax-dodging high st names who are registered in the cayman islds etc and who could avoid all the CUTS if they paid what is due.

Or we could remember who is really responsible for all this; the socialist government that splashed money about irresponsibly, leaving the country in its biggest financial mess since 1945.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

A number of people on this thread ( and others ) have claimed the increase in fees and cuts in spending are nothing more than Tory policy rather than necessity. That the reason we're in debt is the bank bailout and global recession and nothing Labour have done. That being the unlikely case, could someone explain how we pay back the £10bn+ a month we're currently borrowing ON TOP of what we've already borrowed without making these cuts and increases in fees ? So at the moment we're still borrowing, not paying back anything we've previously borrowed nor putting any more money into the banks - banking crisis and global recession my arse - it's Labours borrowing that's got us into this mess and raising student fees is only a small tip of the iceberg of what needs to be done.

 

[HovaGirl]

In an attempt to get some facts in this debate it may be beneficial if those spouting about mickey mouse degrees could give us some examples of what they believe fall into this category and what percentage of students take them as opposed to what they believe are valid degrees?

Judgements seem to vary as to what constitutes a Mickey Mouse degree. Some think History of Art is pretty useless. But it isn't if you are hoping to work in an Art Gallery or Auction House, in art conservation or in a museum. I love the Beatles, but studying the Beatles for a degree isn't going to help you train for a job in music or much else. What exactly is Media Studies going to prepare you for? A degree in History will prepare you for the analytical thinking required of a lawyer and get you into law school. Or it can prepare you for a job as an archivist, a librarian, or perhaps you may even diversify into archaeology. It would even be useful if you want to go into politics, later. A maths degree will help prepare you for life as an accountant, building surveyor or computer programmer. A degree in science will pave the way if you want to become a doctor, vet, pharmacist, psychiatrist or even a research scientist. All of these will help prepare you for post-graduate study in these kinds of high-level, well-paid jobs and they can be the launching pad to a Post-Graducate Certificate in Education, the qualification required to be a teacher.

My personal bone of contention, is Sociology, the biggest non-subject of them all. The study of sociology has done more to divide society than any other single subject. Students think they are really learning something useful, but all they are learning is how to manipulate statistics and pander to the whims of sociologists with a Marxist agenda. It has bred a generation of Marxists who do not understand why they are Marxists.

Further down the scale is the myriad of vocational degrees which people used to take as HNCs or HNDs at Technical Colleges and Polytechnics. These are for more practical subjects which do not belong in the analytical type of thinking which used to be required at university. These qualifications should prepare you for a specific practical skill in society, such as midwifery, but it won't help you become a vet, if you wanted to change discipline part-way through.

Many of these newer degrees don't prepare you for any particular type of employment. They just keep you off the dole queue for another three years, saddle you with a load of debt, and fill up the university coffers. At the end of the three years, you expect a job as with a graduate-level of salary, but such jobs don't exist, unless you specialise, as outlined above. You would be better off starting your working career as soon as you leave school, or what they now call Sixth Form College, and get trained in a skill which people want. We are all selling our skills and people are willing to pay more for some skills than for others. That way, you will start to earn money more quickly, and you won't have a monstrous debt around your neck.

 

[HovaGirl]

A number of people on this thread ( and others ) have claimed the increase in fees and cuts in spending are nothing more than Tory policy rather than necessity. That the reason we're in debt is the bank bailout and global recession and nothing Labour have done. That being the unlikely case, could someone explain how we pay back the £10bn+ a month we're currently borrowing ON TOP of what we've already borrowed without making these cuts and increases in fees ? So at the moment we're still borrowing, not paying back anything we've previously borrowed nor putting any more money into the banks - banking crisis and global recession my arse - it's Labours borrowing that's got us into this mess and raising student fees is only a small tip of the iceberg of what needs to be done.

Quite right. If people remember nothing else, they should remember that more was paid in benefits last year, than was raised in the taxes used to pay for the benefits.

A State in debt can only do two things. It can cut costs, or raise revenue. A State has no revenue. It is not a business. The only revenue a State has, is as a collective, being the sum total of the taxes the people pay.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Some think History of Art is pretty useless. But it isn't if you are hoping to work in an Art Gallery or Auction House, in art conservation or in a museum.

...or you simply want to broaden your knowledge and understanding of the history of art as well as gain a variety of other skills that will see you well in other walks of life?

 

[HovaGirl]

...or you simply want to broaden your knowledge and understanding of the history of art as well as gain a variety of other skills that will see you well in other walks of life?

It's an awful lot of money to spend on a hobby.

 

[drew]

Quite right. If people remember nothing else, they should remember that more was paid in benefits last year, than was raised in the taxes used to pay for the benefits.

A State in debt can only do two things. It can cut costs, or raise revenue. A State has no revenue. It is not a business. The only revenue a State has, is as a collective, being the sum total of the taxes the people pay.

People should also remember that the estimated amount of avoided tax is equivalent to the deficit. Should also remember that for the first 5 years of the labour government the national debt was reduced. They should dwell on the waiting lists for the NHS left by the Tory governments of Major and Thatcher, the lack of capital investment in schools and hospitals that meant spending was essential. The improvements in salaries of nurses (although they did get it wrong with Doctors and Dentists) so they have a living wage. In 10 years from 1997, GDP doubled which meant investment in society through increased tax revenue could be made. However, the global recession as a result of uncontrolled bankers (and they would have had less regulation had the Tories been in power) shafted the proposed spending plans and resulted in the massive deficit (and let's not forget it was the tories who first started to deregulate the finance sector). Unfortunately, some have a blinkered view of labour and dismiss anything worthwhile they achieved. They didn't get everything right, but they didn't get everything wrong either.

 

[The Large One]

My personal bone of contention, is Sociology, the biggest non-subject of them all. The study of sociology has done more to divide society than any other single subject. Students think they are really learning something useful, but all they are learning is how to manipulate statistics and pander to the whims of sociologists with a Marxist agenda. It has bred a generation of Marxists who do not understand why they are Marxists.

Yes, folks, someone really did say that. Without, by the looks of things, any hint of irony.