[Politics] White working class failure

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

I thought the thread's title was a description of me from a former girlfriend.

 

[zefarelly]

Good luck Harry

The parental influence over youth decision making is interesting.

My father had his education funded by his grandmother, but didn't go to Uni, his choice. He was quite insistent I did, but like him , I didn't.


My step father ( probably at the insistence of my mother) was prepared to support me in further education, but when I was basically skiving was very pointed in saying I'll support you if you work, but not if you don't. Fair enough, I left school and got a job.

My step fathers upbringing was very different, ex RAF father, one of 5, he mucked about a lot in his youth and @ 15 got the option of Borstal or bootcamp/Army, he chose the latter . .think he left Bounstone with a few CSE's

Both my 'Dads' are intelligent reasoned men, but their attitudes toward life both very different, and very much a by product of their teens/education and upbringing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is school and college/Uni will only ever do so much, if home life is that bad you're doomed from the start. I could give examples of that from my childhood and a few kids, at least one of which I know is dead already.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

Finally, what constitutes 'good' teaching? Unfortunately the government's assessment process (that determines how much money each uni gets from HMG) is very dependent on 'student feedback' (National Student Survey). There is a focus on 'student satisfaction'. To get good marks staff are expected to be nice to students at all times, always be constructive, and to award high marks. Students love high marks. Need I say more?

I won't bang on about this since it's some way off topic, but I'd start with "being audible during lectures", with the next step up the tree being "having more energy than a tranquillised sloth while lecturing". I wouldn't have thought that was too much to ask but it was too much for several of my lecturers.

Good luck with the operation / hope it went well

 

[portslade seagull]

Everytime I clock this thread I think it's about Ben ffs

 

[Deleted member 2719]

I see the right wing multiply-banned 'dimmer twins' are on the thread now in an attempt to drag it into the gutter. Who knew?

I only see a left-wing guy who can't contain himself in abusing people.

Doesn't need to.

Just needs a thread ban for the three posters trying to drag it there.

Sent from my M2010J19CG using Tapatalk

I think you will find it is those that can't put up with opposing views that scream abuse at individuals and then they only have the neck to get people banned, weirdly they are untouchable.

For the record BadFish you are just fine...............that I can recall.

 

[portslade seagull]

Indeed. This would have been impossible ten years ago. Another example of the evolving civility that I maintain has always operated (not everyone, not at all times, but in the main) with the trajectory of the centre of gravity unmistakably onwards and upwards.

Yes, there are some very saddening posts. People denied an education by their parents, in particular.

I'm off for a hernia op in an hour and NSC has done a good job of taking my mind off the prospect

All the best

Hope it went well Harry. Have had both sides done myself

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Hope it went well Harry. Have had both sides done myself

I have never had a hernia, what's it like

 

[portslade seagull]

I have never had a hernia, what's it like

Painful, basically your stomach lining pushing through a tear. I used to bend double and push it back in

 

[Lever]

This comes as no surprise to me:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57558746

White working class have been at the bottom of the achievement pile for many years. Especially boys.

I'm old enought to remember growing up when it was expected that I 'know my place'. Getting into grammar school was life or death. I was lucky. At university I was the only person I knew there on a grant of any sort (I was on a full grant). I have one old mate from uni days (who is the son of a diplomat, but, like me a bit peculiar). The rest of them were alien. I somehow got a PhD place in Canada and nobody could understand my regional (Brighton) accent, so I had to learn to speek queen's English just to get by. But Canada is relatively classless and it was only 4 years away from the UK that 'saved me' (from never forgetting 'my place'). When I came back to the UK I was able to stare down middle class arrogance (from the young medics doing their MD training). I managed to blag a lectureship and my career has been quite good. But boy do I get abreactions from some of the middle classes. Fear is the main abreaction . My football and music...my 'attitude' rub them up the wrong way. A lot of it is just me but the class 'press' has always been there.

I feel that things are manyfold better now than in the 70s, but today's data speak for themselves. I'd be very happy indeed to see some positive intervention. When I was a kid I knew kids who passed the 11 plus but were sent by their parents to the secondary modern school because 'that sort of thing isn't for us'. Shocking. In fact my first wife was one. Things are better, but having large swathes of the population struggling and feeling neglected while being told they are 'lucky' is the root cause of all sorts of our recent and current problems, I suspect.

Others care to share their experience?

Thank you for sharing this poignant summary. In many ways I suppose the Grammar School was intended for people like you and me, although I am now an outspoken critic of the system because of the many people who are labelled 'failure' at 11. Thank goodness for the 'Lifelong Learning' initiative....

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I won't bang on about this since it's some way off topic, but I'd start with "being audible during lectures", with the next step up the tree being "having more energy than a tranquillised sloth while lecturing". I wouldn't have thought that was too much to ask but it was too much for several of my lecturers.

Good luck with the operation / hope it went well

Cheers - it seems to be fine

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Thank you for sharing this poignant summary. In many ways I suppose the Grammar School was intended for people like you and me, although I am now an outspoken critic of the system because of the many people who are labelled 'failure' at 11. Thank goodness for the 'Lifelong Learning' initiative....

Cheers.

I may have miswritten somewhere but our choice in Fav is 11 plus (and grammar school) or comp (not secondary modern).

Back in the 90s, as you will recall, Blair tried to change the system but backed off in the face of the 'pro grammar backlash'. It seemed there were enough 'ordinary' voters of Kent in favour of selection to make the removal of the 11 plus a toxic quest. When my son reached 11, 25 years ago eek my options were to send him to the comp (which at the time was an academy of violence, drugs and tomfoolery), coach him for the eleven plus or pretend we were Catholics (there is a good Catholic comp in Canterbury). As a single parent at the time I chose to coach him and he got into the grammar school. It didn't feel right but I didn't feel like making a political point over my son's education (which is how the system has persisted - a mix of fear and reward - a bit like the toilet roll hoarding at the start of Covid - not an attractive situation but parents like me forced to put up or risk 'damaging' the kid's education).

I agree with your comments albeit there is less sense that the comp option represents failure here in Kent, any more. The comp here is very good (uniforms, good educational outcomes....) but one does wonder what the point of the Grammar school is if the comp is satisfactory. For whatever reason there is no clamour to change the system here. Either it actually works, or the majority (whose kids don't get into the grammar school) think this system is somehow appropriate. I really can't tell. It goes without saying that the preponderance of kids in the comp are from working class families whereas the preponderance in the grammar school is middle class. I thought that Brexit was a really bad idea but others disagree and I can't really offer overwhelming evidence that it matters that we have left the EU, or that in Kent it is bad we still have the eleven plus.

Rather the opposite of the Danny Baker stance of 'sometimes right, sometimes wrong, always certain' on this occasion. I really don't know anymore

One last thing, as a beneficiary of the Grammar school system I have always felt uncomfortable with the idea of me, personally, campaigning against it. That would feel a bit like raising the drawbridge after having been granted entry into the castle....

 

[Lever]

Cheers.

I may have miswritten somewhere but our choice in Fav is 11 plus (and grammar school) or comp (not secondary modern).

Back in the 90s, as you will recall, Blair tried to change the system but backed off in the face of the 'pro grammar backlash'. It seemed there were enough 'ordinary' voters of Kent in favour of selection to make the removal of the 11 plus a toxic quest. When my son reached 11, 25 years ago eek my options were to send him to the comp (which at the time was an academy of violence, drugs and tomfoolery), coach him for the eleven plus or pretend we were Catholics (there is a good Catholic comp in Canterbury). As a single parent at the time I chose to coach him and he got into the grammar school. It didn't feel right but I didn't feel like making a political point over my son's education (which is how the system has persisted - a mix of fear and reward - a bit like the toilet roll hoarding at the start of Covid - not an attractive situation but parents like me forced to put up or risk 'damaging' the kid's education).

I agree with your comments albeit there is less sense that the comp option represents failure here in Kent, any more. The comp here is very good (uniforms, good educational outcomes....) but one does wonder what the point of the Grammar school is if the comp is satisfactory. For whatever reason there is no clamour to change the system here. Either it actually works, or the majority (whose kids don't get into the grammar school) think this system is somehow appropriate. I really can't tell. It goes without saying that the preponderance of kids in the comp are from working class families whereas the preponderance in the grammar school is middle class. I thought that Brexit was a really bad idea but others disagree and I can't really offer overwhelming evidence that it matters that we have left the EU, or that in Kent it is bad we still have the eleven plus.

Rather the opposite of the Danny Baker stance of 'sometimes right, sometimes wrong, always certain' on this occasion. I really don't know anymore

One last thing, as a beneficiary of the Grammar school system I have always felt uncomfortable with the idea of me, personally, campaigning against it. That would feel a bit like raising the drawbridge after having been granted entry into the castle....

Yes, I totally get what you are saying and I applaud your actions for your son.

Like 'the truth', the decisions we are obliged to make are rarely pure and never simple. Good luck to you sir!

 

[cloud]

In India the girls are usually well-educated, even if they then get married without having a career. The reason is, an educated mother will always make sure her children (i.e. sons) are well educated.

If you want to know how well a child will do, look at the mother's highest level of education.

Obviously absent fathers also play a part, as boys need male role models once they reach their teens. But this role doesn't have to be carried out by a family member, and their inspiration could come from a good teacher, family friend etc.

 

[GT49er]

I may have miswritten somewhere but our choice in Fav is 11 plus (and grammar school) or comp (not secondary modern).

Just to add a few comments on that - we have four - yes, four grammar schools in Gloucester. Heavily oversubscribed by out-of towners, of course, especially rich, heavily coached kids form Cheltenham! There are also some devious treatments by the education authority of 11+ results to ensure a few bright, likely to achieve kids are deflected into the sink comps to try and make them better (it doesn't work, but that's by-the-by).
The point is, the other schools are called comprehensive; they're not. They are secondary moderns. A couple of them tried to raise themselves by opening sixth forms, but it didn't work - any kids they had who may have wanted to do 'A' levels transferred to the sixth form at one of the grammar schools or a sixth form college, and any 'A' level pupils at grammar schools obviously stayed put, so the attempts to run a sixth form withered and died swiftly.
And, at the end of the day - and my point is - a comprehensive school without a sixth form is, like it or not, a secondary modern.

Hope you survived the procedure!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Just to add a few comments on that - we have four - yes, four grammar schools in Gloucester. Heavily oversubscribed by out-of towners, of course, especially rich, heavily coached kids form Cheltenham! There are also some devious treatments by the education authority of 11+ results to ensure a few bright, likely to achieve kids are deflected into the sink comps to try and make them better (it doesn't work, but that's by-the-by).
The point is, the other schools are called comprehensive; they're not. They are secondary moderns. A couple of them tried to raise themselves by opening sixth forms, but it didn't work - any kids they had who may have wanted to do 'A' levels transferred to the sixth form at one of the grammar schools or a sixth form college, and any 'A' level pupils at grammar schools obviously stayed put, so the attempts to run a sixth form withered and died swiftly.
And, at the end of the day - and my point is - a comprehensive school without a sixth form is, like it or not, a secondary modern.

Hope you survived the procedure!

Yes, you're right. I suspect and hope the trajectory is in the direction of change.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

Just to add a few comments on that - we have four - yes, four grammar schools in Gloucester. Heavily oversubscribed by out-of towners, of course, especially rich, heavily coached kids form Cheltenham! There are also some devious treatments by the education authority of 11+ results to ensure a few bright, likely to achieve kids are deflected into the sink comps to try and make them better (it doesn't work, but that's by-the-by).
The point is, the other schools are called comprehensive; they're not. They are secondary moderns. A couple of them tried to raise themselves by opening sixth forms, but it didn't work - any kids they had who may have wanted to do 'A' levels transferred to the sixth form at one of the grammar schools or a sixth form college, and any 'A' level pupils at grammar schools obviously stayed put, so the attempts to run a sixth form withered and died swiftly.
And, at the end of the day - and my point is - a comprehensive school without a sixth form is, like it or not, a secondary modern.

Hope you survived the procedure!

The Tideway minibus still had something like "Tideway School and Sixth Form" on it when I was there. The sixth form had very much gone by then (along with about 1500 pupils after the school in Peacehaven opened), because nobody in their right mind would want to do their A-Levels at Tideway.

Many many years before, my dad passed his 11+ and got sent to the local secondary modern anyway due to "lack of space". A few years later my mum lucked into going to a Comprehensive which had been converted from a Secondary Modern by replacing the sign outside, and nothing else.

I came across a statistic once about the proportion of people who went to Secondary Moderns compared to how many university students had been to them (before Comprehensives were brought in), which was something ridiculous like 80% compared to about 5% (yes I have made those numbers up, it was a while ago). They're just a bad idea which consigned thousands of people to the scrap heap for no good reason, and in some areas continue to do so.

 

[zefarelly]

In India the girls are usually well-educated, even if they then get married without having a career. The reason is, an educated mother will always make sure her children (i.e. sons) are well educated.

If you want to know how well a child will do, look at the mother's highest level of education.

Obviously absent fathers also play a part, as boys need male role models once they reach their teens. But this role doesn't have to be carried out by a family member, and their inspiration could come from a good teacher, family friend etc.

That explains why my son is smarter than me.

He's not having as much fun, but he's still only 15, so plenty of time to catch up.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

https://youtu.be/fT9o0A6n454
Good old Femi
Regards
DF

 

[WATFORD zero]

To be fair, if our little racist, anti-Semite, homophobic, scrounging, nazi supporting moronic friend wants to continue to post his pathetic, meaningless, whining drivel on NSC then this thread has a strangely appropriate title for his ramblings

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

To be fair, if our little racist, anti-Semite, homophobic, scrounging, nazi supporting moronic friend wants to continue to post his pathetic, meaningless, whining drivel on NSC then this thread has a strangely appropriate title for his ramblings

I'm pleased there is so much thoughful comment on this thread. And I'm glad it hasn'y (yet) been taken down due to trolling.