When will the UN do something ?

[symyjym]

You're thinking as someone with a jewish/christian upbringing. There is really nothing in humans that makes the christian (or jewish for that matter) more believable than the muslim about life after death.

I am thinking as myself an atheist who is impartial. If I was going to compare Muhammad with Buddha, Gandhi , Mandela, Martin Luther King Jr or Bob Marley it would still be no competition. I will judge people on their history not religion.

You have clearly missed the point and I haven't even said that I believe in life after death.

 

[BadFish]

Ah, the human condition; language elevated homo sapiens to the apex of the food chain but politics rules the world.

Thanks for your rather more erudite response and yet at the very most it does is bring into question the UN's moral legitimacy. Is the UN perfect? Of course not. Would we be better off without it? Surely not, it's all we have, without that imperfect totem then abandon hope, we're simply warring tribes.

You state "the UN is simply a talking shop" yet due in part to UN peacekeeping efforts and conflict resolution, fewer people died in the first decade of the 21st century than in any decade of the 20th. South Africa and Kazakhstan gave up nuclear weapons, others submit to nuclear weapons inspections. Your confirmation bias also eschews significant achievements of the UN through it's agencies( WHO, UNICEF, UNESCO, World Bank, IMF etc) such as the eradication of Smallpox and moving the world from 70 million people dying of famine in the last century to one where none will die by the end of this (equitable redistribution of wealth is obviously an objective consigned to the far distant future!).

You question the UN's civility and yet strip out your emotive adjectives, no leave them in, and all your accusations could equally apply to Britain during the last few decades. And yet morally we're moving on. Although of course we're still selling arms to Saudi Arabia......

Are you being naive or is it faux outrage? World morality, if there is such a thing, is inevitably tempered by national self interests, politics rules the world. A Saudi Arabian has been appointed as chair of a panel of independent experts on the human rights council. How much influence will he have and how much more influence will the world through the UN bring to bear on him and Saudi Arabia?

Good post, eloquently put. It is too easy to look at these things as completed and form a critique. Really we are just some way through a long long process, a proces that will involve many wrong turns and backward steps.

 

[BadFish]

It tells us a lot about that particular father. It tells us nothing about people in general. Both sides in this debate willing to make sweeping generalizations to re-enforce their particular point. There is no right or wrong, truth or falsehood in the Israeli/Arab dispute.

Sweeping generalisations you say

Both sides are locked into fighting pointless historical battles cheered on on one side by angst ridden western liberals and in the other by hardline ideologues. Neither side has much interest in the humanity on the other side. It will carry on forever. Whatever happens though it is nothing to do with the UN until they similarly stand up for the rights of the Kurds, Armenians and many other oppressed peoples. When will that happen ? Never. I am surprised that anyone has any faith in an organization dominated by the USA, Russia and China.

Damn those sweeping generalisations

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Sweeping generalisations you say



Damn those sweeping generalisations

Yep, I take your point but I was rather clumsily talking about the cheerleaders for both sides. I think that most people really don't care anymore and want this never ending dispute to go away.

 

[Diego Napier]

Good post, eloquently put. It is too easy to look at these things as completed and form a critique. Really we are just some way through a long long process, a proces that will involve many wrong turns and backward steps.

You are absolutely right, it is a long long process. Adopting the obligatorily simplistic NSC football team supporter/I'm right your wrong/first past the post British political/ I win you lose posturing just won't even begin to scratch the surface let alone cut it. Simply reading a book like Yuval Harari's Sapiens would enlighten and transform.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You are absolutely right, it is a long long process. Adopting the obligatorily simplistic NSC football team supporter/I'm right your wrong/first past the post British political/ I win you lose posturing just won't even begin to scratch the surface let alone cut it. Simply reading a book like Yuval Harari's Sapiens would enlighten and transform.

I'm with you on the over simplification of the issue. Perhaps if westerners stopped forming a definitive view either way that would allow the actual participants to resolve the matter themselves. Anyway I'm off to the footie. Long drive from Suffolk.

 

[BadFish]

You are absolutely right, it is a long long process. Adopting the obligatorily simplistic NSC football team supporter/I'm right your wrong/first past the post British political/ I win you lose posturing just won't even begin to scratch the surface let alone cut it. Simply reading a book like Yuval Harari's Sapiens would enlighten and transform.

The only way that this problem is going to be resolved is by getting both sides talking and finding a way to move forward. The only organisation i can see being able to do this would be the UN. Having said that the person or persons that sorts out this situation will be a bloody miracle worker.

 

[Steve Foster]

Do you agree that Israel has the right to return fire against Hamas when they are fired upon?

You won't get a response from Withdean Seagull, because I have tried many times over the years. In his warped mind, the Middle East problems are all because of Israel. The Arabs having 98.5%+ of the land is simply not enough & those nasty democratic Israelis, where 20%+ of their population is Arab, have too much land. Forget that any land that Israel acquires is bought; forget that the borders of the Gaza strip are not free borders between Egypt & Gaza (nothing to do with Israel); forget that Jordan a country much bigger than Israel was created at the same time for the Palestinian people. You see Israel deserves to have 500+ missiles sent over from Gaza each year & the Israelis should sit back & do nothing. Forget that Israel pulled all their settlements out of Gaza & those very nice Palestinians knocked down all the houses, infrastructure & left what was there in ruins - you see it's all Israel's fault - according to Westdene Seagull (who knows what is going on over there as he sits in his room all day long - because he is unemployed/unemployable & can do all his research on line - so he is very knowledgeable. He doesn't need to go to Israel/Middle East to see what is happening, as this would cloud his superior knowledge. We forget about the number of Arabs taken in by Israel (who have had wore torn injuries from their internal civil wars, we forget about the gays who are killed in their lovely peaceful Arab nations that seek solace in Israel; we forget about the Christians who are persecuted & Israel is the only country in the Middle East where their population is increasing), no - you see Israel, the size of Wales (of which half is desert) is the most wicked country on earth & needs to be more like Syria/Lebanon/Iraq etc according to the fountain of all knowledge that is WS.

Oy vey

 

[Diego Napier]

You won't get a response from Withdean Seagull, because I have tried many times over the years. In his warped mind, the Middle East problems are all because of Israel. The Arabs having 98.5%+ of the land is simply not enough & those nasty democratic Israelis, where 20%+ of their population is Arab, have too much land. Forget that any land that Israel acquires is bought; forget that the borders of the Gaza strip are not free borders between Egypt & Gaza (nothing to do with Israel); forget that Jordan a country much bigger than Israel was created at the same time for the Palestinian people. You see Israel deserves to have 500+ missiles sent over from Gaza each year & the Israelis should sit back & do nothing. Forget that Israel pulled all their settlements out of Gaza & those very nice Palestinians knocked down all the houses, infrastructure & left what was there in ruins - you see it's all Israel's fault - according to Westdene Seagull (who knows what is going on over there as he sits in his room all day long - because he is unemployed/unemployable & can do all his research on line - so he is very knowledgeable. He doesn't need to go to Israel/Middle East to see what is happening, as this would cloud his superior knowledge. We forget about the number of Arabs taken in by Israel (who have had wore torn injuries from their internal civil wars, we forget about the gays who are killed in their lovely peaceful Arab nations that seek solace in Israel; we forget about the Christians who are persecuted & Israel is the only country in the Middle East where their population is increasing), no - you see Israel, the size of Wales (of which half is desert) is the most wicked country on earth & needs to be more like Syria/Lebanon/Iraq etc according to the fountain of all knowledge that is WS.

Oy vey

Ah, opinions and statistics eh Fozzy?

34 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 2,136 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

1,204 Israelis and at least 9,419 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.


11,707 Israelis and 91,280 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

During Fiscal Year 2016, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $10.2 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians.

Israel has been targeted by at least 77 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by 1.

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and at least 48,488 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 5.6%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 17.7% and 44% in Gaza.

Israel currently has 261 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

 

[portslade seagull]

I feel the more pressing issue is Syria but the In just sits back and watches as countless thousands are killed

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Ah, opinions and statistics eh Fozzy?

34 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 2,136 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

1,204 Israelis and at least 9,419 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.


11,707 Israelis and 91,280 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

During Fiscal Year 2016, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $10.2 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians.

Israel has been targeted by at least 77 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by 1.

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and at least 48,488 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 5.6%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 17.7% and 44% in Gaza.

Israel currently has 261 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I'm afraid our Israeli violence loving friend will ignore those facts !

 

[Steve Foster]

Is Israel perfect of course not - but Westdene Seagull continued anti Israel stance is bigoted. Many anti Semites say that they are anti Israel but not antisemetic (all very convenient). Now WS dig down deep & let's hear some nice things?

 

[Bakero]

You are absolutely right, it is a long long process. Adopting the obligatorily simplistic NSC football team supporter/I'm right your wrong/first past the post British political/ I win you lose posturing just won't even begin to scratch the surface let alone cut it. Simply reading a book like Yuval Harari's Sapiens would enlighten and transform.

I was just thinking of him as I skimmed through this thread. The Guardian published an essay of his today actually : https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/sep/09/isis-global-civilisation-google-yuval-noah-harari It's a good read.

 

[Robot Chicken]

Israelis are Palestinians and are building on their own land.