[Albion] Was there a better site than Falmer

[jackalbion]

I think the problems we are seeing on the trains is down to a number of factors:

1. Less provision from Southern. Pre-Covid we typically had 6 trains per hour, most if not all, lengthened. My observation is now we get about 5 per hour with just the odd one lengthened.
2. Loss of Bennett's Field parking.
3. Stadium capacity increase of around 1000.
4. More sell outs and fewer no-shows.

Lengthening Falmer station platforms and replacing 2 four-car 377 trains with 12-car class 700 units would give an enormous capacity increase of over 5000 per hour and reduce the train queues massively.

The service levels are the same, theres 90% of the time 6 and on a rare occasion 5 trains per hour. The only game this season that had 5 was Liverpool. The lengthening is an interesting one. The total carriage capacity for the Falmer route is 44 (2x 8 car to Eastbourne/Ore, 2x 8 car to Seaford and 2x 6 car Lewes), in reality with the withdrawal of class 313s with only 4 car units available for Lewes Shuttle that is down to 40. This is where the current problems are coming from, lack of available stock to extend the trains. The 700 idea is a good but the unit is not route cleared to go beyond Lewes and if that had to turn around at the Lewes 58 signal that would reduce the capacity, thats before you even touch upon the fact that Southern drivers don't have traction knowledge or Thameslink have very limited drivers route knowledge. Furthermore there isn't really enough 700s to cover the Thameslink services. Its a supply problem, the government need to tender more stock for all routes in this country not just Southern, instead of retiring units without replacement, or refusing to pay leasing costs on perfectly good working semi modern units (class 379s or 360s for example).

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The service levels are the same, theres 90% of the time 6 and on a rare occasion 5 trains per hour. The only game this season that had 5 was Liverpool. The lengthening is an interesting one. The total carriage capacity for the Falmer route is 44 (2x 8 car to Eastbourne/Ore, 2x 8 car to Seaford and 2x 6 car Lewes), in reality with the withdrawal of class 313s with only 4 car units available for Lewes Shuttle that is down to 40. This is where the current problems are coming from, lack of available stock to extend the trains. The 700 idea is a good but the unit is not route cleared to go beyond Lewes and if that had to turn around at the Lewes 58 signal that would reduce the capacity, thats before you even touch upon the fact that Southern drivers don't have traction knowledge or Thameslink have very limited drivers route knowledge. Furthermore there isn't really enough 700s to cover the Thameslink services. Its a supply problem, the government need to tender more stock for all routes in this country not just Southern, instead of retiring units without replacement, or refusing to pay leasing costs on perfectly good working semi modern units (class 379s or 360s for example).

Continuing respect for posting the nuts and bolts on here @jackalbion. It may not help us like the situation any more, but it sure as hell helps us understand it a bit more

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Totally agree, Brighton Pride being an example when they close Preston Park Station, also let’s not forget Coventry Arena Station closed on match days Although I’m reliably informed that although it was initially closed it’s now available on game days.

I forgot about Pride.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Look, let's just build one of these and be done with it.

If Germany can build one 120 years ago, then why can't we? How hard can it be?

All it needs is a forward thinking, transformational, philanthropic billionaire, who could invest his money in it until it's all gone.

Funnily enough I posted a pic of exactly that in reply to a post by @Herr Tubthumper. I travelled on it in the early 80s. Emotional.

 

[Uter]

The service levels are the same, theres 90% of the time 6 and on a rare occasion 5 trains per hour. The only game this season that had 5 was Liverpool. The lengthening is an interesting one. The total carriage capacity for the Falmer route is 44 (2x 8 car to Eastbourne/Ore, 2x 8 car to Seaford and 2x 6 car Lewes), in reality with the withdrawal of class 313s with only 4 car units available for Lewes Shuttle that is down to 40. This is where the current problems are coming from, lack of available stock to extend the trains. The 700 idea is a good but the unit is not route cleared to go beyond Lewes and if that had to turn around at the Lewes 58 signal that would reduce the capacity, thats before you even touch upon the fact that Southern drivers don't have traction knowledge or Thameslink have very limited drivers route knowledge. Furthermore there isn't really enough 700s to cover the Thameslink services. Its a supply problem, the government need to tender more stock for all routes in this country not just Southern, instead of retiring units without replacement, or refusing to pay leasing costs on perfectly good working semi modern units (class 379s or 360s for example).

I can only assume there are matchday services running that don't appear on the National Rail Enquiries timetables if that's the case, as I never see more than 5 per hour.

I thought the 700s were cleared to Eastbourne, but I stand corrected. As I mentioned in a previous post, the club would surely be expected to pay for the necessary driver training / route clearance / platform lengthening etc, and I find it hard to envisage them being prepared to do this.

As I understand it, Thameslink is not at the full intended service (24tph), so I am a little surprised they are struggling to have sufficient trains in service to cover even the current timetable. Even just running one 700 unit on a matchday would make such an enormous difference.

 

[jackalbion]

I can only assume there are matchday services running that don't appear on the National Rail Enquiries timetables if that's the case, as I never see more than 5 per hour.

I thought the 700s were cleared to Eastbourne, but I stand corrected. As I mentioned in a previous post, the club would surely be expected to pay for the necessary driver training / route clearance / platform lengthening etc, and I find it hard to envisage them being prepared to do this.

As I understand it, Thameslink is not at the full intended service (24tph), so I am a little surprised they are struggling to have sufficient trains in service to cover even the current timetable. Even just running one 700 unit on a matchday would make such an enormous difference.

The extra services are the Lewes Shuttle trains which are listed as (Q) trains, which are only activated when a driver and stock is available (which it is most of the time) and aren't advertised to the public. If you look on real time trains you can find them. There is always a rumour going around railway circles that Thameslink was meant to be going to Eastbourne at one time so therefore the 700s are cleared down there, but no idea where the origin came from. There was one I believe stored down there once upon a time when they were under going testing but theres different rules for units under test. As for the Thameslink full intended service, well I could probably right a book on what went wrong with that, in fact I wrote my dissertation on the handling of that.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I think the location is excellent. I can bus it from 12 miles away in West Sussex and the whole thing takes c 40 mins from onboarding to joining the beer queue. Or I can drive to Shoreham and train it, or drive to The Bridge Car Park.

I also think having the ground right by the A27 where it is visible to passing motorists is a big advert and source of pride. I never fail to pass Falmer without still being in awe of the stadium. From a countywide, catchment area perspective it is more inclusive than - say - a stadium tucked away closer in to the city centre, which would be more of a Brighton thing and less of a Sussex thing.

 

[¡Cereal Killer!]

Not sure if mentioned already, but wasn't the site next to Brighton station which now has Sainsburys and housing etc a consideration but for whatever reason we couldn't? or did I imagine that?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I'm not so sure...

A central location would make the transport plan even more reliant on rail, wouldn't it? Imagine that with the current standard of train services.

There are no available car parks for a decent number of cars, and no space to park numerous coaches.

Falmer has pretty decent road connections, being bang on the A27 - a central Brighton location wouldn't give you that. With any volume of additional football traffic, the whole area could be gridlocked for hours.

A city centre stadium would certainly have caused a great deal MORE traffic / transport issues for the non-attendees, that is for sure - and ultimately the stadium (and its transport plan) did have to satisfy such considerations to attain planning approval.

 

[HeaviestTed]

Are you old enough to remember the trolleybuses? I was only 3 but I did go for a ride on one.

Trolleybuses in Brighton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Presumably far to young to remember the actual trams.

Brighton Corporation Tramways - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am certain however you are familiar with this wonderful item in Wuppertal.

Wuppertal Schwebebahn - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now, we could surely erect a bit of kit like this over the Falmer road?

View attachment 168911

Go over the sea and drop the palace fans in

 

[beorhthelm]

Not sure if mentioned already, but wasn't the site next to Brighton station which now has Sainsburys and housing etc a consideration but for whatever reason we couldn't? or did I imagine that?

it was briefly in the running, the cost of land, the many interests in having housing rather than a stadium snuffed that out.

 

[Uter]

The service levels are the same, theres 90% of the time 6 and on a rare occasion 5 trains per hour. The only game this season that had 5 was Liverpool. The lengthening is an interesting one. The total carriage capacity for the Falmer route is 44 (2x 8 car to Eastbourne/Ore, 2x 8 car to Seaford and 2x 6 car Lewes), in reality with the withdrawal of class 313s with only 4 car units available for Lewes Shuttle that is down to 40. This is where the current problems are coming from, lack of available stock to extend the trains. The 700 idea is a good but the unit is not route cleared to go beyond Lewes and if that had to turn around at the Lewes 58 signal that would reduce the capacity, thats before you even touch upon the fact that Southern drivers don't have traction knowledge or Thameslink have very limited drivers route knowledge. Furthermore there isn't really enough 700s to cover the Thameslink services. Its a supply problem, the government need to tender more stock for all routes in this country not just Southern, instead of retiring units without replacement, or refusing to pay leasing costs on perfectly good working semi modern units (class 379s or 360s for example).

I think things will only improve once we have a government that actually cares about rail travel and wants to drive up ridership rather than cut costs.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

'Was there a better site than Falmer?' No. Discussing alternative sites, however daft they were, is akin to pissing in the wind.
We can't change the past. But we can change the future.

Perhaps a better question might be:
'Is there a better transport plan than the one currently being delivered?'

You’d have thought so. Perhaps if TB is enabling 100s of millions in profit on sales, perhaps some of that could be invested into better transport. Our problem is just what that transport should be and where should its hub be? Personally I would like to see a halt on the London/Brighton line with a major car park to form a hub so that people could get bussed or mono-railed to the ground from it.
OK - pie in the sky!

 

[jackalbion]

I think things will only improve once we have a government that actually cares about rail travel and wants to drive up ridership rather than cut costs.

100%, I think a lot of problems will be solved with a general election, or just sticking to a sustained model, if the companies make money currently they aren't allowed to reinvest its a nonsense.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Some of those double-deck trains like they have in continental Europe would go down a TREAT!

 

[Kubes]

Some of those double-deck trains like they have in continental Europe would go down a TREAT!

But we had them years ago!

 

[The Grockle]

I dont know anything about transport or have any solutions for what is clearly a huge issue on matchdays but there's probably at least 400 thousand pasenger journeys being paid for by supporters a season. This deserves better planning and investment from the transport providers IMO.

 

[jackalbion]

I dont know anything about transport or have any solutions for what is clearly a huge issue on matchdays but there's probably at least 400 thousand pasenger journeys being paid for by supporters a season. This deserves better planning and investment from the transport providers IMO.

With all respect is that not a slightly contradictory statement? I don’t know anything, but the plan must be better, maybe this is the best plan available with the current resource, investment is the only way forward.

 

[El Presidente]

In a fantasy land i do wish the whole thing had kickef off a couple of years earlier and we had a stadium behind Brighton Station. Just imagine

My fantasy land involves Kylie Minogue, her sister, and a bath full of warm Bird’s custard.

…and there was more chance of that coming true than finding a realistic alternative to Falmer for a stadium.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Are you old enough to remember the trolleybuses? I was only 3 but I did go for a ride on one.

Trolleybuses in Brighton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Presumably far to young to remember the actual trams.

Brighton Corporation Tramways - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am certain however you are familiar with this wonderful item in Wuppertal.

Wuppertal Schwebebahn - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now, we could surely erect a bit of kit like this over the Falmer road?

View attachment 168911

Too young to remember trams in Brighton. The Wuppertal overhead system is pretty cool isn’t it? I first saw this in the excellent Wim Wenders “road movie” Alice in The Cities.