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War in Middle East - part XXVVVII
- Thread starter portlock seagull
- Start date
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
seagullsovergrimsby
#cpfctinpotclub
probably on tour giving conference/after dinner speeches at $250,000 a pop.
Dandyman
In London village.
Much (most?) of Israel's behaviour is an insult to everything that many who look to the secular, progressive, non-exclusivist heritage within Jewish life would treasure.
Dandyman
In London village.
The Spanish
Well-known member
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
So again, how do you believe Israel will cease to exist within your lifetime ? What could you perhaps see happening to bring that about ?
The Spanish
Well-known member
who knows mate I am not nostradamus. all i can see is some fuckers clinging on by their fingertips to some beach head, who have a proven track record for f***ing annoying their neighbours, rightly or wrongly, and have only got away with behaving abysmally due to the my enemy's enemy is my friend school of international politics, are not going to be around forever when people finally get f***ed off with them or they serve no useful purpose. its a hunch rather than an accurate prediction.
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Steve Foster
Well-known member
This is not correct. The Israelis have time after time made concessions, given land to the Palestinians. However, Hamas does not recognise the right of Israel to exist. You cannot sit down with your enemy if they will not recognise you or whose main purpose is to wipe Israel off the map.
Once, Hamas recognise Israel, then the Israeli's, USA & to a degree the Europeans will resolve the issue
Capitalised YOU seems to be pointing at me! I don't take sides, they are both as bad as each other.
Michael Collins, wasn't he that Irish chappie played by Liam Nielsen? Also, Alison Meek has a vested interested as she is due to inherit everything from all of us so of course she doesn't want a war thats going to leave a mess everywhere!!!
Capitalised YOU seems to be pointing at me! I don't take sides, they are both as bad as each other.
Michael Collins, wasn't he that Irish chappie played by Liam Nielsen? Also, Alison Meek has a vested interested as she is due to inherit everything from all of us so of course she doesn't want a war thats going to leave a mess everywhere!!!
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
No sir.
My capitalised 'YOU' was directed very much at the US of A.
The Spanish
Well-known member
only if she believes Jesus was the son of God she will. This nailing her colours to the wrong mast might scupper it.
Steve Foster
Well-known member
Israel
Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons. -- Associated Press, Dec. 27
Some geopolitical conflicts are morally complicated. The Israel-Gaza war is not. It possesses a moral clarity not only rare but excruciating.
Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the past three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people.
This has two purposes. First, counting on the moral scrupulousness of Israel, Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal. Second, knowing that Israelis have new precision weapons that may allow them to attack nonetheless, Hamas hopes that inevitable collateral damage -- or, if it is really fortunate, an errant Israeli bomb -- will kill large numbers of its own people for which, of course, the world will blame Israel.
For Hamas, the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians.
For Hamas, the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians. The religion of Jew-murder and self-martyrdom is ubiquitous. And deeply perverse, such as the Hamas TV children's program in which an adorable live-action Palestinian Mickey Mouse is beaten to death by an Israeli (then replaced by his more militant cousin, Nahoul the Bee, who vows to continue on Mickey's path to martyrdom).
At war today in Gaza, one combatant is committed to causing the most civilian pain and suffering on both sides. The other combatant is committed to saving as many lives as possible -- also on both sides. It's a recurring theme. Israel gave similar warnings to Southern Lebanese villagers before attacking Hezbollah in the Lebanon war of 2006. The Israelis did this knowing it would lose for them the element of surprise and cost the lives of their own soldiers.
That is the asymmetry of means between Hamas and Israel. But there is equal clarity regarding the asymmetry of ends. Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Doing something never done by the Turkish, British, Egyptian and Jordanian rulers of Palestine, the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza.
What ensued? This is not ancient history. Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly.
The grievance? It cannot be occupation, military control or settlers. They were all removed in September 2005. There's only one grievance and Hamas is open about it. Israel's very existence.
Nor does Hamas conceal its strategy. Provoke conflict. Wait for the inevitable civilian casualties. Bring down the world's opprobrium on Israel. Force it into an untenable cease-fire -- exactly as happened in Lebanon. Then, as in Lebanon, rearm, rebuild and mobilize for the next round. Perpetual war. Since its raison d'etre is the eradication of Israel, there are only two possible outcomes: the defeat of Hamas or the extinction of Israel.
Israel's only response is to try to do what it failed to do after the Gaza withdrawal. The unpardonable strategic error of its architect, Ariel Sharon, was not the withdrawal itself but the failure to immediately establish a deterrence regime under which no violence would be tolerated after the removal of any and all Israeli presence -- the ostensible justification for previous Palestinian attacks. Instead, Israel allowed unceasing rocket fire, implicitly acquiescing to a state of active war and indiscriminate terror.
Hamas's rejection of an extension of its often-violated six-month cease-fire (during which the rockets never stopped, just were less frequent) gave Israel a rare opportunity to establish the norm it should have insisted upon three years ago: no rockets, no mortar fire, no kidnapping, no acts of war. As the U.S. government has officially stated: a sustainable and enduring cease-fire. If this fighting ends with anything less than that, Israel will have lost yet another war. The question is whether Israel still retains the nerve -- and the moral self-assurance -- to win
Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons. -- Associated Press, Dec. 27
Some geopolitical conflicts are morally complicated. The Israel-Gaza war is not. It possesses a moral clarity not only rare but excruciating.
Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the past three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people.
This has two purposes. First, counting on the moral scrupulousness of Israel, Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal. Second, knowing that Israelis have new precision weapons that may allow them to attack nonetheless, Hamas hopes that inevitable collateral damage -- or, if it is really fortunate, an errant Israeli bomb -- will kill large numbers of its own people for which, of course, the world will blame Israel.
For Hamas, the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians.
For Hamas, the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians. The religion of Jew-murder and self-martyrdom is ubiquitous. And deeply perverse, such as the Hamas TV children's program in which an adorable live-action Palestinian Mickey Mouse is beaten to death by an Israeli (then replaced by his more militant cousin, Nahoul the Bee, who vows to continue on Mickey's path to martyrdom).
At war today in Gaza, one combatant is committed to causing the most civilian pain and suffering on both sides. The other combatant is committed to saving as many lives as possible -- also on both sides. It's a recurring theme. Israel gave similar warnings to Southern Lebanese villagers before attacking Hezbollah in the Lebanon war of 2006. The Israelis did this knowing it would lose for them the element of surprise and cost the lives of their own soldiers.
That is the asymmetry of means between Hamas and Israel. But there is equal clarity regarding the asymmetry of ends. Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Doing something never done by the Turkish, British, Egyptian and Jordanian rulers of Palestine, the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza.
What ensued? This is not ancient history. Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly.
The grievance? It cannot be occupation, military control or settlers. They were all removed in September 2005. There's only one grievance and Hamas is open about it. Israel's very existence.
Nor does Hamas conceal its strategy. Provoke conflict. Wait for the inevitable civilian casualties. Bring down the world's opprobrium on Israel. Force it into an untenable cease-fire -- exactly as happened in Lebanon. Then, as in Lebanon, rearm, rebuild and mobilize for the next round. Perpetual war. Since its raison d'etre is the eradication of Israel, there are only two possible outcomes: the defeat of Hamas or the extinction of Israel.
Israel's only response is to try to do what it failed to do after the Gaza withdrawal. The unpardonable strategic error of its architect, Ariel Sharon, was not the withdrawal itself but the failure to immediately establish a deterrence regime under which no violence would be tolerated after the removal of any and all Israeli presence -- the ostensible justification for previous Palestinian attacks. Instead, Israel allowed unceasing rocket fire, implicitly acquiescing to a state of active war and indiscriminate terror.
Hamas's rejection of an extension of its often-violated six-month cease-fire (during which the rockets never stopped, just were less frequent) gave Israel a rare opportunity to establish the norm it should have insisted upon three years ago: no rockets, no mortar fire, no kidnapping, no acts of war. As the U.S. government has officially stated: a sustainable and enduring cease-fire. If this fighting ends with anything less than that, Israel will have lost yet another war. The question is whether Israel still retains the nerve -- and the moral self-assurance -- to win
Yes it is correct. Almost everyone DOES agree with a two state solution. When a peaceful solution was nearly brokered before the Israeli PM was assassinated, the *only* sticking point was the sovereignty of East Jerusalem!
However I agree with you that you can't sit down with an opponent like Hamas, until they soften their stance. However, it seems the Palestinian electorate have decided they couldn't sit down with Israel all the while they were illegally occuping land in the west bank and making only a few token efforts to remove some of their people. It cuts both ways.
Personally, I think if just one US president grew some bollocks and TOLD Israel to pull completely out of the West Bank within 12 months (or suffer the consequences), the two sides might not only have a chance of creating a peaceful settlement but that it might not require ANY further outside involvement. If I was Palestinian, I'd be less inclined to vote extremist at the sight of Israeli concessions than anything else.
It's bollocks like this that entirely discredit your point of view. Personally, I won't bother replying to any of your nonsense from now on.
Steve Foster
Well-known member
Israel
It is regretable that from your reply, you are unaware of the Hamas militant physce. Once the militants can be persuaded, please god, to sit and discuss matters with the israelis, stop bombing israel on a daily basis, or if need be destroyed...then and only then will peace be achieved. Don't forget Israel has peaceful agreements with Egypt & Jordan. Who would of thought that 30 years or so ago?
It wasn't that long ago that the IRA were bombing civilians in the UK?
Or 9/11 for that matter?
Israel I assure you wants nothing more than peace with all its neighbours
It is regretable that from your reply, you are unaware of the Hamas militant physce. Once the militants can be persuaded, please god, to sit and discuss matters with the israelis, stop bombing israel on a daily basis, or if need be destroyed...then and only then will peace be achieved. Don't forget Israel has peaceful agreements with Egypt & Jordan. Who would of thought that 30 years or so ago?
It wasn't that long ago that the IRA were bombing civilians in the UK?
Or 9/11 for that matter?
Israel I assure you wants nothing more than peace with all its neighbours
Tom Bombadil
Well-known member
Tom Bombadil
Well-known member
I don't know if it's been mentioned but this guy is probably a Giyu. This is a pressure group who trawl internet discussion boards shouting down arguments they deem anti-israeli and wrecking online polls.
See attached link for details
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article693911.ece
See attached link for details
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article693911.ece
NMH
Banned
Nice! Glad to hear that.
Er....should the Palestinians actually even be neighbours, living in a small 'compound' like they do? Or should these people be living together in one land (i.e. the place where they used to live that has been renamed Israel) , in harmony? Well, the suspicious thing about the latter concept, is that the Palestinians are cloistered into a small area like that, and have to have food supplies delivered by the grace of their kind neighbours.
Why have they receded to that small area? How did that happen like that?
'Bit fishy innit?