Vote Tory for a..umm...err..we sort of might have a sort of referendum on Europe.

[Camicus]

Vote Tubthumper! The pro-euro alternative! Common sense and integration with our euro cousins.

Im in

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I also feel that the reason mainland Europe are more comfortable with the EU is that they, as citizens, benefit from a lot of these seemingly small items. Add up all these small rulings and it leads to a simple, common sense, easy stress free way of life where things work and work for you. As UK citizens we get none of these benefits as the government always opt out.

Just out of interest and I am talking about the average man on the street here, what benefits are we missing out on?
I don't expect you to list them all, but things that are important and effect our everyday life.

I think most people agree there are good parts, but the only reason this issue has raised it's head in the first place is because of what people are seeing in Greece, Spain and immigration levels in the UK.
It's that one issue that annoys a lot of people, because they wonder how this country is going to cope in the future. It's a fair enough question because it could effect us all eventually.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Just out of interest and I am talking about the average man on the street here, what benefits are we missing out on?

As I mentioned there are a lot of minor things which compound to make life seem all the more easier. But, there are hundreds. I mentioned bikes on trains; here it is a given with space provided and the knowledge that I can take my bike on a train crossing borders seamlessly....without the need to worry about a passport or check the numerous terms and conditions of various train operators for the times and directions when bikes are allowed. Even catching a train is a battle in the UK, doing it with a bike is near impossible.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

People travelling in the region can immediately recognise a fire extinguisher and how to use it, saving vital seconds in the event of a fire and yes the colour is a big visual aid.

Probably a poor example to pick. In the UK the standard used to be that the whole extinguisher was the appropriate colour. The EU in it's wisdom decided they should be red with an identifying coloured panel. So before you could tell from a distance which type of extinguisher it was - now you have to be able to view the extinguisher head on to know what type it is.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

As I mentioned there are a lot of minor things which compound to make life seem all the more easier. But, there are hundreds. I mentioned bikes on trains; here it is a given with space provided and the knowledge that I can take my bike on a train crossing borders seamlessly....without the need to worry about a passport or check the numerous terms and conditions of various train operators for the times and directions when bikes are allowed. Even catching a train is a battle in the UK, doing it with a bike is near impossible.

Ok so we take this bike example, even if it there was rule for train companies to take bikes in the UK, they wouldn't because it takes up space and they just care about money.
I agree, I would love to take my bike on the train properly.

 

[HovaGirl]

Spot on, and the much derided (in this country) Working Time Directive, Agency Workers Directive and similar regulations also have no purpose other than to shift the balance slightly in favour of the individual (worker in this case) in what is otherwise, a very non-level playing field. At this point, of course, we get the business lobby arguing about how terrible such things are, and what a terrible restriction on the "right to manage", the profitability of small businesses blah, blah.
How is it, that in every other EU member state, companies not only live with, but thrive in this kind of regulatory environment (with many economies including Germany doing far better than our economy) and recognise that a necessary quid pro quo for the free market, no tariff barriers etc is a certain amount of protection for the workforce? Are they really all idiots, but we've got it absolutely right?

They don't. Many of the other European countries don't follow the rules. It's only Britain that does, generally.

 

[cunning fergus]

a) I am not a civil servant b) the connection my livelihood has with the EU is minimal in the grand scheme of things. I work on all sorts of projects, it just so happens the current one is a joint effort between one of the biggest companies in the UK (who I have a contract with) and the EU but it is of european wide interest. In two weeks time I move on to something else. I made the point because I can see at first hand how the EU is helping the UK economy. This is not their primary objective in this case but the direct money they have provided and the future returns on this investment to the UK tax payer are very very significant. And Gordon Brown has to be thanked for the tax incentives which enables this to be undertaken in the UK.

You indicated you are being paid by EU funds, I don’t care whether its influence is grosse or petit in the scheme of your livelihood it still creates a natural conflict with your arguments on the benefits of the EU.

I also have the “benefit” of dealing with the EU (and EU organisations) in my role. Conversely I can see how the EU is doing very little to benefit our customers (and others in the same industry) or the wider business community. What I do see are never ending demands which are only driving up our costs which we will inevitably pass on to the customers in higher fees.

In one particular example customers using our services going forward (as they will elsewhere) will have to pay for the infrastructure we will need to build and maintain in order to hold more of their personal and financial data which we will then have an obligation to provide to the UK Govt who will in turn make it available to the EU.

Having forced us to create and maintain all of these new databases the EU are shortly due to introduce a new Data Protection Directive (probably later this year) and that will introduce more demands with huge penalties (up to 2% of a firms turnover) on the other side. So, we will have to pay more money for more controls to counter the risks and this will in turn raise our costs further disadvantaging our customers.

In the meantime (and forgetting the lost opportunity costs for us because instead of generating money we are spending time being inward looking) a business that currently employs people and pays its corporation tax will have to decide whether a service that used to be cost effective to customers and cost neutral to the business is too expensive to continue. If we stop the customers immediately have less choice and the business lays off its staff.

You don’t need to tell me about the economic “benefits” to the UK.............tragically I see them all too clearly.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

They don't. Many of the other European countries don't follow the rules. It's only Britain that does, generally.

OK the EU might be beneficial for some businesses, but reading on here it just seems to me a load of rules have been slapped on rules we already had in the first place.

 

[HovaGirl]

As I mentioned there are a lot of minor things which compound to make life seem all the more easier. But, there are hundreds. I mentioned bikes on trains; here it is a given with space provided and the knowledge that I can take my bike on a train crossing borders seamlessly....without the need to worry about a passport or check the numerous terms and conditions of various train operators for the times and directions when bikes are allowed. Even catching a train is a battle in the UK, doing it with a bike is near impossible.

People have been taking bikes on UK trains for almost 40 years. Has something changed?

 

[mikeyjh]

People have been taking bikes on UK trains for almost 40 years. Has something changed?

As HT said, catching trains with a bike is a nightmare:-

Cycle policy : Southern

 

[CheeseRolls]

Probably a poor example to pick. In the UK the standard used to be that the whole extinguisher was the appropriate colour. The EU in it's wisdom decided they should be red with an identifying coloured panel. So before you could tell from a distance which type of extinguisher it was - now you have to be able to view the extinguisher head on to know what type it is.

Not at all, it is the process, not the final colour that is the key. This simple example underpins free trade within the EU zone, something you were suggesting some 26 pages ago would be a simple thing to recreate once we had exited the European Union.

 

[vegster]

I fear that this thread will run for quite a while what with the next General Election slated for May 2015 and then Diddy David's re-negotiation ( ultimatum ) and debate and organisation of a possible Referendum and it will end up close to 2017 !

Expect plenty of bounces as The Daily Mail and Daily Express ramp up their bluster over perceived EU threats to sovereignty and legislation.

See you in 4 years when it matters, but, probably won't !

 

[cunning fergus]

I know you are specifically questioning HT on his stance here,but I do want to throw a couple of things back at you.

Being pro-European does not automatically equate to wanting to put more and more money into a central pot. The point is to engage and fight for the best deal for the UK, within the EU.

Developing high tech new industries is essential to our long term prosperity. It requires huge investment and the success rate is actually quite low. By pooling resources with our European partners we are able to benefit from economies of scale, as in aerospace and defence, focus our own resources in areas where we are particularly strong like life sciences, for example and benefit from areas where our partners are stronger such as wind and solar energy generation. All of this activity involves cross border funds transfers and yes the numbers look enormous, especially when people think that all they are paying for is politicians to sit in Brussels and pontificate.

Feel free to throw away........

For the record I love Europe (the continent and its countries), but what is with the pot? Why is there a central pot of money in the first place? I don’t see why there has to be a central pot..............why are UK taxpayers, consumers and businesses giving money to a pot (or an institution) that they have never been directly asked to contribute too? For example, the EU places a levy on our VAT, so all our VATable goods are more expensive as a direct consequence of the EU? And consumers benefit from that how?

Messrs Van Rompoy, Barroso and Schutlz who represent the 3 most powerful people in the EU have not been voted in by any electorate other than EU politicians or leaders of the national Govts of the member states. This is a POLITBURO and more similar to how the Chinese and other totalitarian countries elect their leadership...................I think its f***ing laughable that there are so many on here that can’t wait to vote out Cameron in the UK, but can’t see the irony that they can’t vote out ANY of the leadership of the EU, the very institution they are so enthusiastic for.....................but it’s not laughable is it? Its actually a tragic indication of what a mess we are in and despite the opportunity to sort it out, people are still moaning about Cameron or the Daily Mail. I think many Pro EU supporters arent really Pro EU, they are just anti anyone who expresses an anti EU view.

Your argument for cross border technology pooling is fine...............but then why would that not happen without the EU? Frankly why would companies only look to do this only with other EU companies, the world doesn’t end at the borders of the EU.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Feel free to throw away........

For the record I love Europe (the continent and its countries), but what is with the pot? Why is there a central pot of money in the first place? I don’t see why there has to be a central pot..............why are UK taxpayers, consumers and businesses giving money to a pot (or an institution) that they have never been directly asked to contribute too? For example, the EU places a levy on our VAT, so all our VATable goods are more expensive as a direct consequence of the EU? And consumers benefit from that how?

Messrs Van Rompoy, Barroso and Schutlz who represent the 3 most powerful people in the EU have not been voted in by any electorate other than EU politicians or leaders of the national Govts of the member states. This is a POLITBURO and more similar to how the Chinese and other totalitarian countries elect their leadership...................I think its f***ing laughable that there are so many on here that can’t wait to vote out Cameron in the UK, but can’t see the irony that they can’t vote out ANY of the leadership of the EU, the very institution they are so enthusiastic for.....................but it’s not laughable is it? Its actually a tragic indication of what a mess we are in and despite the opportunity to sort it out, people are still moaning about Cameron or the Daily Mail. I think many Pro EU supporters arent really Pro EU, they are just anti anyone who expresses an anti EU view.

Your argument for cross border technology pooling is fine...............but then why would that not happen without the EU? Frankly why would companies only look to do this only with other EU companies, the world doesn’t end at the borders of the EU.

This I think is the biggest joke of all. It certainly should not have been rewarded on current performance.
EU receives Nobel peace prize | World news | guardian.co.uk

 

[CheeseRolls]

Feel free to throw away........

For the record I love Europe (the continent and its countries), but what is with the pot? Why is there a central pot of money in the first place? I don’t see why there has to be a central pot..............why are UK taxpayers, consumers and businesses giving money to a pot (or an institution) that they have never been directly asked to contribute too? For example, the EU places a levy on our VAT, so all our VATable goods are more expensive as a direct consequence of the EU? And consumers benefit from that how?

Messrs Van Rompoy, Barroso and Schutlz who represent the 3 most powerful people in the EU have not been voted in by any electorate other than EU politicians or leaders of the national Govts of the member states. This is a POLITBURO and more similar to how the Chinese and other totalitarian countries elect their leadership...................I think its f***ing laughable that there are so many on here that can’t wait to vote out Cameron in the UK, but can’t see the irony that they can’t vote out ANY of the leadership of the EU, the very institution they are so enthusiastic for.....................but it’s not laughable is it? Its actually a tragic indication of what a mess we are in and despite the opportunity to sort it out, people are still moaning about Cameron or the Daily Mail. I think many Pro EU supporters arent really Pro EU, they are just anti anyone who expresses an anti EU view.

Your argument for cross border technology pooling is fine...............but then why would that not happen without the EU? Frankly why would companies only look to do this only with other EU companies, the world doesn’t end at the borders of the EU.

Central funding - I would argue that finding for EU representation at the WTO is desirable and beneficial http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/uk-eu-china-summit-idUKBRE88I1I220120919

Unelected leaders - I concede, I should care more about this, but there you go.

Cross border technology - Works within the confines of multi-national companies, but many R&D and indeed large construction projects carry too much risk for private investors. So governments have to fund some of these activities. A report this week into Boris Island suggested that private companies would not be prepared to fund the 30bn required for this. Where these investments have wider benefits, it makes sense to fund them regionally.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

You can just as well argue why should English Taxpayers be asked to contribute to a UK-wide 'Pot' of money that doles out funding to N. Ireland, Scotland and Wales, when no English Constituent has a right to vote for members of the N. Ireland Assembly, Welsh Assembly or Scottish Parliament.

Or for that matter, why should I, a West Berkshire Constituent, contribute to a 'Centralised Pot' that doles out Central Govt. funds to other Local Authorities via the Revenue Support grant, supporting Councils which I have no right, as a non-resident, to vote for Councillors in.

And nor can we vote for the 'Speaker' of the House of Commons or ANY member of the House of Lords.

On your terms of reference Westminster is just as undemocratic as Brussels.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Ok so we take this bike example, even if it there was rule for train companies to take bikes in the UK, they wouldn't because it takes up space and they just care about money.
I agree, I would love to take my bike on the train properly.

This is my point though, in the EU they have to provide space whether they care about money or not. You dont cooperate you dont run a train service in the EU. Simples.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

People have been taking bikes on UK trains for almost 40 years. Has something changed?

Plenty has changed. Try taking a bike on a train during rush hour. Try taking a bike on a train after the London to Brighton bike ride. Remember the guards van?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As HT said, catching trains with a bike is a nightmare:-

Cycle policy : Southern

And this is just Southern, there's another set of rules if you change trian operator.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You can just as well argue why should English Taxpayers be asked to contribute to a UK-wide 'Pot' of money that doles out funding to N. Ireland, Scotland and Wales, when no English Constituent has a right to vote for members of the N. Ireland Assembly, Welsh Assembly or Scottish Parliament.

Or for that matter, why should I, a West Berkshire Constituent, contribute to a 'Centralised Pot' that doles out Central Govt. funds to other Local Authorities via the Revenue Support grant, supporting Councils which I have no right, as a non-resident, to vote for Councillors in.

And nor can we vote for the 'Speaker' of the House of Commons or ANY member of the House of Lords.

On your terms of reference Westminster is just as undemocratic as Brussels.

Nor the Queen. I'd vote for her head on a spike if I could, but I can't.