US election (merged threads)

[Sweeney Todd]

I am surprised at the way people are treating Brexit and the Trump victory as some sort of revolution! Handing power back to the political elite of westminster isn't revolutionary and nor is electing a billionaire member of the elite to govern within the existing US political system. Changes of the system would cause real revolutionary change to happen, changes within the existing system most certainly won't.

I am not talking about a revolution. The people are saying that they want democracy, but that they wish it to be more responsive to people’s hopes and fears, rather than its being a vehicle for an out-of-touch elite – and a minority at that – to impose its worldview on the majority.

 

[BigGully]

Just watching the numerous reports on the matter last night and a personal favourite:

Reporter "Hello madam. Who did you vote for"
Lady: "Donald J Trump"
Reporter: "OK. And what were your reasons"
Lady: "I liked his policies"
Reporter: "Many would argue he didn't have many specific policies"
Lady:"Sure he did. He said he would 'Make America Great Again'"
Reporter: "and how will he do that?"
Lady: "I don't know"

Amazing.

This was a SWING state.

Have a read of Sweeney Todds link, you epitomise the piece very well, very well indeed.

 

[Baldseagull]

In a conversation about Trump and going too far, it does make a change for it not to be the man himself that is being accused.
He shall reap as he sows I guess, hate begets hate.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/sneering-response-trumps-victory-reveals-exactly-won/

Interesting article, and quite compelling.

I also think we all need to trust the collective mind of the electorate more, and suggest it is more likely to come to a good decision than the single mind of any individual, given there is rarely one universal correct answer.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Have a read of Sweeney Todds link, you epitomise the piece very well, very well indeed.

I'm EXTREMELY comfortable being categorised as someone who thinks the quote I used shows complete and utter stupidity from the woman who said it.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

He didn't say that though, he said Americans were accepting the result - even as tens of thousands of people are taking to the streets.

And I don't recall many senior politicians contesting the Brexit vote. The leaders of both main parties, both Remainers, said that Brexit means Brexit and should happen right away, as have most senior MPs. There have been one or two who said they should fight it (notably Tony Blair) but there have been several politicians in the US who have said they'll continue to fight against Trump,

I know we live in post-fact age but things are getting ridiculous now

There are many politicians here working against Brexit. Tim Fallon and the liberals, Owen Smith in the labour party and I'm sure there are others. Nicola Sturgeon has thrown her two-penneth in as well.

 

[Simster]

I am not talking about a revolution. The people are saying that they want democracy, but that they wish it to be more responsive to people’s hopes and fears, rather than its being a vehicle for an out-of-touch elite – and a minority at that – to impose its worldview on the majority.

Which is exactly what Trump's election WON'T deliver. He has conned the electorate into thinking he is something he isn't.

Here is the article I mentioned earlier:
http://www.economist.com/news/unite...ng-class-whites-not-what-it-seems-whats-going

Two main explanations have been offered for Mr Trump’s success with working-class white men. First, wage stagnation is estimated to have left them worse off in real terms than they were in 1996. That is partly due to the decline of unions, which has reduced American workers’ collective-bargaining power. It is also due to heightened competition from China and to technological change. By hammering trade deals, to which he inaccurately attributes most of those problems, Mr Trump has aimed to vindicate the sense of grievance over globalisation that many working-class whites feel.

I am still struggling to see how a vote for Trump is a vote for being "more responsive to people’s hopes and fears".

 

[Pantani]

It's fine to criticise the 'lefties' for not accepting the result just as it would have been fine to criticise Trump if he didn't accept the result. What would have happened if the election result went for Clinton is irrelevant, protesting about a democratic vote is pathetic.

Are US Presidential elections democratic? The person who got the most votes did not win.

Their electoral college system really is a complete nonsense. If you look at Clinton and Trumps movements over the last weeks of the campaign, they basically just folowed each other around the same key states trying to woo a small section of the country. Leaving voters in Alabama, Alaska, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Columbia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Maine, Maryland etc etc completely disenfranchised. The votes of the people in these states are pretty irrelevant to who will get elected as President. THAT is undemocratic, and it is worth protesting about.

nb. a lot of these states are Republican, so this is not just about left v right.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I'm EXTREMELY comfortable being categorised as someone who thinks the quote I used shows complete and utter stupidity from the woman who said it.

I suspect that the views of one person were sought and publicised and made to look representative of all Trump supporters.

 

[Simster]

Have a read of Sweeney Todds link, you epitomise the piece very well, very well indeed.

Haha, it does absolutely nothing of the sort. How does highlighting the astonishing ignorance and stupidity of a voter in a key marginal epitomise a piece rallying against the political establishment?

That is just more of your usual high-and-mighty unpleasant rubbish, and another feeble attempt at a put-down in the form of nonsensical bluster and bullshit.

I suspect that the views of one person were sought and publicised and made to look representative of all Trump supporters.

Quite possibly, but criticising mejona highlighting it is no more objective than the entire basis of the Spectator article that asserts the political elite are ALL looking down at Trump supporters, or bashlsdir's daft conclusion that nearly everyone who didn't vote Brexit is willing it to fail.

 

[studio150]

Oh god, this. A million times THIS.

I voted to remain in Europe, the U.K. voted differently. I was upset for a while but I've moved on, that's how democracy works. I honestly don't hope we remain now through a loophole or because of the result of mass hysteria. We're leaving the EU, stop moaning and get on with it.The problem is, both the Brexit and Trump victories were largely down to the older demographic voting one way, with the Remain /Clinton campaigns having the lions share of young voters. This means a lot of people voting for the first time are A) not used to losing & B) surrounded with people their own age on Facebook/Twitter who are all voting the same way as them. This means they're blindsided by the actual result as 90% of the people they'll have contact are voting the same way. Democracy is great until you're in the minority I guess

As certain sections of the German population found out after Hitler was voted in under a democratic vote. Maybe there should have been more protest at the time.

Whether Trump is a monster or his pledges will not be introduced. There is however mucj scope for hatred to increase in the USA. Mexican Muslim Gay Pregnant get ready for thecTrump insipired hate calls and being forcibly removed from the USA.

Over the top maybe but many have these fears.

 

[carlzeiss]

Certainly here :-

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[GT49er]

Yep, agree. Like Farage organising a march to protest a democratic ruling by the judiciary.

The judiciary make judicial decisions, not democratic ones.

 

[Giraffe]

Pathetic media driven hype and nonsense. People need to get a sense of proportion.

 

[Paul Reids Sock]

Oh god, this. A million times THIS.

I voted to remain in Europe, the U.K. voted differently. I was upset for a while but I've moved on, that's how democracy works. I honestly don't hope we remain now through a loophole or because of the result of mass hysteria. We're leaving the EU, stop moaning and get on with it.The problem is, both the Brexit and Trump victories were largely down to the older demographic voting one way, with the Remain /Clinton campaigns having the lions share of young voters. This means a lot of people voting for the first time are A) not used to losing & B) surrounded with people their own age on Facebook/Twitter who are all voting the same way as them. This means they're blindsided by the actual result as 90% of the people they'll have contact are voting the same way. Democracy is great until you're in the minority I guess

Great point very well made.

I think there is also a lot of truth in your last point as well. it is great until you are in the minority. A lot of the remain votes will not see themselves as being in a minority. It was so close and so many people didn't vote when they had a choice. As such people will complain saying that those votes weren't reached out to/the other side are all idiots. I was remain, I have accepted we will leave and it doesn't bother me too much anymore, I just look forward to when it is over and we have (hopefully) got at least a handful of decent deals.

With the US, it is actually the minority that won, you can understand the annoyance, yet again it is the way in which it works and should be accepted.

It is a great point about the young as well, they bloody love a protest and fair play to them for it. I am 28 so probably a bit old for it now, but I remember at 18 people being so annoyed by a result going against them that they were straight onto the train to go up and stand up for their rights and have their say. Of course it didn;t change anything but it meant they felt they had done their bit.

Are the young refusing to accept things going against them and being petulant - or are us oldies just so beaten down by the political systems that we just can't be bothered anymore

 

[lawros left foot]

It's fine to criticise the 'lefties' for not accepting the result just as it would have been fine to criticise Trump if he didn't accept the result. What would have happened if the election result went for Clinton is irrelevant, protesting about a democratic vote is pathetic.

If,depending on your politics, either the Socialist Workers party or the BNP were to win a British election with only 25% of the electorate voting for them(a possibility under FPTP, although unlikely)would you still believe that you shouldn't protest at the result.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I suspect that the views of one person were sought and publicised and made to look representative of all Trump supporters.

No. It was called the BBC News and it was a reporter live at a pro-trump gathering and interviewing people ad-hoc.

 

[pb21]

People democratically voicing their opinions about a sexist, racist etc. politician, being told they should be quiet and shut up by other people complaining they don't like democracy.

Post truth irony at its finest!

 

[Baldseagull]

Oh god, this. A million times THIS.

I voted to remain in Europe, the U.K. voted differently. I was upset for a while but I've moved on, that's how democracy works. I honestly don't hope we remain now through a loophole or because of the result of mass hysteria. We're leaving the EU, stop moaning and get on with it.The problem is, both the Brexit and Trump victories were largely down to the older demographic voting one way, with the Remain /Clinton campaigns having the lions share of young voters. This means a lot of people voting for the first time are A) not used to losing & B) surrounded with people their own age on Facebook/Twitter who are all voting the same way as them. This means they're blindsided by the actual result as 90% of the people they'll have contact are voting the same way. Democracy is great until you're in the minority I guess

In the case of Trump v Clinton though, Clinton had more votes.

In both America and Britain, their are flaws in the electoral system, if no one complains when the flaws produce a leader other than the one that the majority voted for, we are stuck with them forever.

In the case of Brexit, the margin is so narrow, and the reasons for people voting leave so varied that it is not something we should just all get behind and push on with, regardless. The current Government will be negotiating the terms of future relationship with the EU for all of us and for all the Parliaments that come after it.
We could leave the EU but still be adopting some of their law, a problem for the Sovereignty voter, we could leave but still have free movement, a problem for the immigration voter, or leave and be tied into not making independent trade negotiations, a problem for those who believe we will be able to deal with the world on better terms than the EU can negotiate.
What sort of Brexit is it that has the majority vote?

 

[Seasidesage]

Certainly here :-

[yt]htOj50B7dNk[/YT]

She went down easier than Winifred in a derby

Not very democratic though I agree with that...