UKIP are now a parliamentary party

[sten_super]

So it's not good news for UKIP at all then?

Doesn't look like it, no. But to be fair it's only one aspect of the immigration debate. Peston has written a pretty good article about it here.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Anyone who believes Migration Watch needs their bumps felt.

It's the argument on the numbers. Open doors with the EU is just that, an open door to millions of people who we have absolutely no control over.
It's convenient to tell us all "well it's just people from EU", without even acknowledging the fact that there are possibly hundreds of thousands of people who have arrived in the EU from outside the EU.

If we where joined to the rest of Europe it wouldn't be an extra 5-6 million people here, it would 10-12 million or possibly more even more.
We need some controls over our borders one way or another.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

It's the argument on the numbers. Open doors with the EU is just that, an open door to millions of people who we have absolutely no control over.
It's convenient to tell us all "well it's just people from EU", without even acknowledging the fact that there are possibly hundreds of thousands of people who have arrived in the EU from outside the EU.

If we where joined to the rest of Europe it wouldn't be an extra 5-6 million people here, it would 10-12 million or possibly more even more.
We need some controls over our borders one way or another.

I work with someone who was born in Pakistan and married a Polish woman , they lived in Poland for 3 years so he could become a naturalised Polish citizen. They moved to the UK in 2011.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Anyone who believes Migration Watch needs their bumps felt.

I agree with you but equally I doubt University College London have the correct figures either. IMO I don't believe it is actually possible to produce an accurate calculation on something as large as this. After all HMRC fail to calculate many peoples tax correctly with far more real data to hand. Hell, Brighton and Hove Council can't even work out how many dustcarts they need or how long it takes the binmen to collect all the rubbish. If organisations like these can't get simple calculations correct I'm buggered if I'm going to believe a survey that's based on many guesses and averaging out and nor am I going to believe Migration Watch's counter figures.

 

[The Spanish]

So it's not good news for UKIP at all then?

its not good for UKIP as discussing non EU migration frankly and sensibly is still far beyond the pale in the UK, hence why they focus on the only just acceptable topic of EU migration. You can just about, now, discuss Eastern European migration without the full wrath of liberal Britain training its guns on you. Mention the same regarding West Africa or the Subcontinent and the gloves come off.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The debate now on Five Live has Andrew Green on immigration. He makes a valid point on the numbers, but still once again nobody gets it.

 

[Eeyore]

its not good for UKIP as discussing non EU migration frankly and sensibly is still far beyond the pale in the UK, hence why they focus on the only just acceptable topic of EU migration. You can just about, now, discuss Eastern European migration without the full wrath of liberal Britain training its guns on you. Mention the same regarding West Africa or the Subcontinent and the gloves come off.

That's very subjective. I'm a liberal and a 'Wanky Lefty' as my boss once benevolently described me. I am concerned about immigration levels, but more because of the impact that large and relatively sudden influxes have on public services and employment in any given area. I'm sure most immigrants are coming to the UK to work and make a better life for themselves. Many of us would do the same if the tables were turned. Mass migration is a fact of human history, it's just managing it that is the problem in the modern world.

What is often not reported, unless you are an Al jazeera subscriber like me, is that the poorest countries in the world have the biggest problem. This is often caused by forced displacement. All I ask is that people have the debate, by all means, but realise that these people are just fellow human beings who weren't given a silver spoon at birth like us.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

That's very subjective. I'm a liberal and a 'Wanky Lefty' as my boss once benevolently described me. I am concerned about immigration levels, but more because of the impact that large and relatively sudden influxes have on public services and employment in any given area. I'm sure most immigrants are coming to the UK to work and make a better life for themselves. Many of us would do the same if the tables were turned. Mass migration is a fact of human history, it's just managing it that is the problem in the modern world.

What is often not reported, unless you are an Al jazeera subscriber like me, is that the poorest countries in the world have the biggest problem. This is often caused by forced displacement. All I ask is that people have the debate, by all means, but realise that these people are just fellow human beings who weren't given a silver spoon at birth like us.

How do we stop these people making these journeys to the EU specifically the Island of Lampedusa
What do we do with 2,500 people camping in Calais
How do we control our own borders for EU migrants

The people that hold the key here are the EU, well they have made it quite clear there will be renegotiation on open borders and they are not doing a very good job in controlling the people who are getting in to the EU, which is why we are now at this junction.

I want to reduce immigration for the very same reasons you do, since the other parties have taken so long to talk about it, along with the EU stand on it, UKIP is my only answer to it now. We might vote for different parties, but it looks like we share the same views on that subject.

 

[El Presidente]

I agree with you but equally I doubt University College London have the correct figures either. IMO I don't believe it is actually possible to produce an accurate calculation on something as large as this. After all HMRC fail to calculate many peoples tax correctly with far more real data to hand. Hell, Brighton and Hove Council can't even work out how many dustcarts they need or how long it takes the binmen to collect all the rubbish. If organisations like these can't get simple calculations correct I'm buggered if I'm going to believe a survey that's based on many guesses and averaging out and nor am I going to believe Migration Watch's counter figures.

I think you make a fair point, but you are an intelligent bloke so I'd expect nothing less.

The debate on immigration is trivialised by both sides. When Farage was on the BBC on Monday he was coming out with scare stories about the potential for 500 million Europeans potentially coming to the UK.

If I said to you are that if we withdrew from the EU would you be worried about 60 million British potentially moving to Westdene you would rightly tell me to stop talking such ridiculous nonsense, so why Farage acts in such a manner is beyond me, and that's why I could never vote for such a person. He's treating people in a patronising manner that shows he's from the same cloth as Con/Dem/Lab.

At the same time the main parties have disenfranchised huge swathes of the population.

Having considered things carefully, I've decided to support a party that is committed to its beliefs, isn't made up of middle class millionaires, and won't let bureaucrats or hand whingers slow down it's ability to drive through change, and that's why I'm putting an 'X' in the box marked 'ISIS' in 2015.

 

[Bold Seagull]

How do we stop these people making these journeys to the EU specifically the Island of Lampedusa
What do we do with 2,500 people camping in Calais
How do we control our own borders for EU migrants

The people that hold the key here are the EU, well they have made it quite clear there will be renegotiation on open borders and they are not doing a very good job in controlling the people who are getting in to the EU, which is why we are now at this junction.

I want to reduce immigration for the very same reasons you do, since the other parties have taken so long to talk about it, along with the EU stand on it, UKIP is my only answer to it now. We might vote for different parties, but it looks like we share the same views on that subject.

Only one comes from the viewpoint of compassion, whereas the other doesn't.

 

[Skylar]

I've given up on all parties. They are all the same, bullshitting two face hypocrites and tell the public what they want to hear. All parties are in it for themselves and not the public. The all live in the Westminster bubble, private club, detached from reality.

 

[User removed 4]

Anyone who believes Migration Watch needs their bumps felt.

Why ?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I work with someone who was born in Pakistan and married a Polish woman , they lived in Poland for 3 years so he could become a naturalised Polish citizen. They moved to the UK in 2011.

One person. Or maybe two.

Is that the reason that the price farmers get paid for milk has plummeted?

 

[Greyrun]

That's very subjective. I'm a liberal and a 'Wanky Lefty' as my boss once benevolently described me. I am concerned about immigration levels, but more because of the impact that large and relatively sudden influxes have on public services and employment in any given area. I'm sure most immigrants are coming to the UK to work and make a better life for themselves. Many of us would do the same if the tables were turned. Mass migration is a fact of human history, it's just managing it that is the problem in the modern world.

What is often not reported, unless you are an Al jazeera subscriber like me, is that the poorest countries in the world have the biggest problem. This is often caused by forced displacement. All I ask is that people have the debate, by all means, but realise that these people are just fellow human beings who weren't given a silver spoon at birth like us.

When there was a crisis in Ethiopia in 1984 which brought about Band Aid the population was 40 million it is now approaching 100 million,how can poorer countries get out of the poverty trap with such population growth rates.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Putting aside whether the figures are accurate or not is nobody a teensy weensy bit surprised that a report that shows migration from the EU has a positive effect is funded by none other than ...... drum roll ..... the EU !!!!

 

[BadFish]

That's very subjective. I'm a liberal and a 'Wanky Lefty' as my boss once benevolently described me. I am concerned about immigration levels, but more because of the impact that large and relatively sudden influxes have on public services and employment in any given area. I'm sure most immigrants are coming to the UK to work and make a better life for themselves. Many of us would do the same if the tables were turned. Mass migration is a fact of human history, it's just managing it that is the problem in the modern world.

What is often not reported, unless you are an Al jazeera subscriber like me, is that the poorest countries in the world have the biggest problem. This is often caused by forced displacement. All I ask is that people have the debate, by all means, but realise that these people are just fellow human beings who weren't given a silver spoon at birth like us.

The trouble is that the strain on public services and emplyment is being felt all over the world. One thing that is rarely considered in these UKcentric debates is the the whole world is over crowded and resources are straining. As space and resources are at a premium then people start to cling onto their bit. Perhaps we should be addressing population growth as a global problem rather than a national one. We could start by making more of the world la viable place for people to live. with our finite resources we are still allowing that much of the middle east and africa are inhospitable for their inhabitants. Perhaps if we look at solving some of these problems we would have a more even spread of the worlds population and use our resources more sensibly. This would of course involve a number of very powerful people becoming a bit less rich and relinquishing their strangle hold.

Automation has limited available job. . The system of employment needs an overhaul. I remember automation being lauded as a way to take the strain off us. Now we have a complete imbalance of work rates a some can't find work at all and others are working every hour god sends for limited return.

The whole planet is imbalanced.

 

[BadFish]

When there was a crisis in Ethiopia in 1984 which brought about Band Aid the population was 40 million it is now approaching 100 million,how can poorer countries get out of the poverty trap with such population growth rates.

The western power brokers can loosen the stranglehold they have them in by paying a fair price for their resources and not holding them to ransom. We can enable this by pressuring our governments to hold their masters accountable and voting for the party that will tackle the root problems of our planet. Unfortunately while we are constantly blaming immigration and migrants for our ills, nothing will get solved.

The global population crisis will take some incredible cooperation and compromise across nations to solve. Something which it seems is currently nothing but a pipe dream. I have read a few different ideas but none are really possible with out a huge reform of ideas and government policies.

 

[Eeyore]

I've read the entries and replies above. Its always encouraging to see reasoned debate from all angles. One of the reasons I'm quite evangelical about NSC. A high percentage of folk on here are very intelligent and worth the time of day.

 

[Stato]

Having just watched the BBC's debate from Rochester & Strood it struck me how bizarre it is that UKIP can be presenting themselves as the alternative to a Westminster elite.
The Tory and Labour candidates are both locals, I would guess that the Green and Lib Dems are also.
The UKIP candidate, after being educated at a top public school, (like Carswell and Farage) studied PPE at Oxford (like both Cameron and Milliband) and, after Columbia Business School, worked in the City (Like Farage) before becoming a Tory MP.

I can understand that the electorate would be sick of the political class, but am amazed at how they are swallowing UKIP as being in any way different when the evidence repeatedly suggests that they are as establishment as anyone else standing for office.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Having just watched the BBC's debate from Rochester & Strood it struck me how bizarre it is that UKIP can be presenting themselves as the alternative to a Westminster elite.
The Tory and Labour candidates are both locals, I would guess that the Green and Lib Dems are also.
The UKIP candidate, after being educated at a top public school, (like Carswell and Farage) studied PPE at Oxford (like both Cameron and Milliband) and, after Columbia Business School, worked in the City (Like Farage) before becoming a Tory MP.

I can understand that the electorate would be sick of the political class, but am amazed at how they are swallowing UKIP as being in any way different when the evidence repeatedly suggests that they are as establishment as anyone else standing for office.

If I am honest that has got to be one of the worst tv debates I have ever watched. Looks like they specially select and sit people in certain positions. It was hardly worth watching. Wish sometimes the BBC would really stay away from things like this. If they want to cover a certain region at least make it an hour to an hour and a half long, and get people across the whole political spectrum.