UKIP are now a parliamentary party

[Captain Sensible]

I have always been a supporter of the EU.

However it's clear that the present borders to the East are only just about sustainable (the Mediterranean makes it all too easy for illegals to get from Turkey into Greece as well as the hop from North Africa to Italy/Malta, let alone the amazing continued existence of mainland Spain in two Moroccan enclaves (Ceuta and Melilla.) Then you have all the Metoplitan outposts of France.

How on earth any further enlargement t incorporate Turkey or Ukraine (for starters) could ever be envisaged in the next say 20 years staggers me. In that sense I have doubts over the credibility of EU policy of free movement.

How

I agree with this.
However leave the EU and lose the huge amount of liquidity per year that EU membership contributes to GDP or try to change these issues whilst still in the EU. I'd say the debate in the uk will push other countries to ask for change on the very matters you speak of.
There's all the talk of leaving and how awful the EU is. But what if we leave and in time the EU get it almost perfectly right, they reform, make their whole structure better and fairer. Then where will we be? Farage is a very slipper dangerous character and so is his party. The message I say to some is:Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I agree with this.
However leave the EU and lose the huge amount of liquidity per year that EU membership contributes to GDP or try to change these issues whilst in the EU.
There's all the talk of leaving and how awful the EU is. But what if we leave and in time the EU get it almost perfectly right, they reform, make their whole structure better and fairer. Then where will we be? Be careful what you wish for.

The reform lots of people would like to see, would be completely different to what DC proposes to the EU. Nobody trusts him on issues with the EU.
Secondly it's whether the EU is even prepared to listen to him in the first place. Who do I trust more on EU matters, Farage or Cameron, Farage I'm afraid.

 

[Captain Sensible]

The reform lots of people would like to see, would be completely different to what DC proposes to the EU. Nobody trusts him on issues with the EU.
Secondly it's whether the EU is even prepared to listen to him in the first place. Who do I trust more on EU matters, Farage or Cameron, Farage I'm afraid.

This is the point I think no one realises, think to yourself why governments want to stay in the EU, why most want to make it work. Because it's a cash cow, it's free trade, links and cooperation. Most laws out if the EU are quite sensible and enhance us, some are awful and badly thought out. But you could say that about any government. I don't understand what politcal leaders and large party's are trying to con us with, why would they as individuals be better off in the EU and are somehow conning the nation, for what? The reason they stay with the EU is politcal and fiscal crash if we were to leave. We are now so deeply connected to the EU that to leave and sever ties would cut the UK arteries. Reform it yes, be within it yes, cut yourself off no.
So it's ok to distrust our government because they want to stay in the EU, but were we to leave, who would be running things? Have a think.
I don't trust the uk government to improve on the EU, in fact transition out would be economically unstable and cost an awful lot, and then to trust Labour or the Tories to once again control everything, can you imagine the mess?

 

[cunning fergus]

This is the point I think no one realises, think to yourself why governments want to stay in the EU, why most want to make it work. Because it's a cash cow, it's free trade, links and cooperation. Most laws out if the EU are quite sensible and enhance us, some are awful and badly thought out. But you could say that about any government. I don't understand what politcal leaders and large party's are trying to con us with, why would they as individuals be better off in the EU and are somehow conning the nation, for what? The reason they stay with the EU is politcal and fiscal crash if we were to leave. We are now so deeply connected to the EU that to leave and sever ties would cut the UK arteries. Reform it yes, be within it yes, cut yourself off no.
So it's ok to distrust our government because they want to stay in the EU, but were we to leave, who would be running things? Have a think.
I don't trust the uk government to improve on the EU, in fact transition out would be economically unstable and cost an awful lot, and then to trust Labour or the Tories to once again control everything, can you imagine the mess?

Call me a cynic but democratically elected Govts being governed by an unelected legislature provides the perfect opportunity for those Govts to obviate from their responsibility. We take it for granted now that EU rules (made by unelected technocrats) prevent the democratically elected UK Govt from deporting undesirables or preventing undesirables arriving. Apart from UKIP there is not a single political party in the UK prepared to do anything about it.

It’s not like the UK electorate have ever supported the policy of free movement within the EU, and they were never consulted about EU expansion that would make this problem even greater. Fact is that it’s been the default position of the political class in the last 20 years.

The “people” who ultimately benefit from the EU are big business and monetarists. It is they who have the politicians in their thrall and so wages in the UK and in many parts of the EU are falling, working conditions are being degraded and yet employment is rising (particularly in the UK). This is madness for the working classes.

Notwithstanding the above though, the real issue is about the future, and there will be 3 choices, because of the consolidation of the EZ countries.

1) Completely in and join the euro/EZ. This means the surrender of fiscal sovereignty and placing our finances in the hands of unelected EU officials trusting them to manage the EU economy wisely (like they have already);
2) In but not in euro/EZ. Single market remains, however the EU will march to the beat of the EZ countries, so the interests of those on the periphery will not be given priority. This will be grave for the City, and UK; interests generally. Understandably too, why should the EZ make compromises for countries not willing to share their pain.
3) Out, and trade agreement with EU. The UK would make a fist of it outside. No doubt we would still have to comply with obligations, however that is on the assumption that the EU is still operating effectively. They have major problems, and it’s a massive assumption to think the EZ countries will all joyfully surrender sovereignty whilst singing ode to joy.

So, really its already a mess, we could say yep, let’s go all in and all go down together or quietly pack up our stuff whilst the going is good and plough our own furrow. There is no guarantee with what is happening politically in France, Greece etc. that the EU will remain anyway.

 

[drew]

Call me a cynic but democratically elected Govts being governed by an unelected legislature provides the perfect opportunity for those Govts to obviate from their responsibility. We take it for granted now that EU rules (made by unelected technocrats) prevent the democratically elected UK Govt from deporting undesirables or preventing undesirables arriving. Apart from UKIP there is not a single political party in the UK prepared to do anything about it.

It’s not like the UK electorate have ever supported the policy of free movement within the EU, and they were never consulted about EU expansion that would make this problem even greater. Fact is that it’s been the default position of the political class in the last 20 years.

The “people” who ultimately benefit from the EU are big business and monetarists. It is they who have the politicians in their thrall and so wages in the UK and in many parts of the EU are falling, working conditions are being degraded and yet employment is rising (particularly in the UK). This is madness for the working classes.

Notwithstanding the above though, the real issue is about the future, and there will be 3 choices, because of the consolidation of the EZ countries.

1) Completely in and join the euro/EZ. This means the surrender of fiscal sovereignty and placing our finances in the hands of unelected EU officials trusting them to manage the EU economy wisely (like they have already);
2) In but not in euro/EZ. Single market remains, however the EU will march to the beat of the EZ countries, so the interests of those on the periphery will not be given priority. This will be grave for the City, and UK; interests generally. Understandably too, why should the EZ make compromises for countries not willing to share their pain.
3) Out, and trade agreement with EU. The UK would make a fist of it outside. No doubt we would still have to comply with obligations, however that is on the assumption that the EU is still operating effectively. They have major problems, and it’s a massive assumption to think the EZ countries will all joyfully surrender sovereignty whilst singing ode to joy.

So, really its already a mess, we could say yep, let’s go all in and all go down together or quietly pack up our stuff whilst the going is good and plough our own furrow. There is no guarantee with what is happening politically in France, Greece etc. that the EU will remain anyway.

Seems to be some big assumptions. There is no suggestion that the Tories nor Labour want to join the EZ. Also, your second option is basically what we have now. You also ignore the fact that at the last elections there were, for want of a better word, protest votes around Europe so there is no guarantee the current rules on free movement won't change. As for the final UKIP option, there is no guarantee that by coming out we will be successful but we will still have governments that play to the tune of business rather than the electorate!

 

[cunning fergus]

Seems to be some big assumptions. There is no suggestion that the Tories nor Labour want to join the EZ. Also, your second option is basically what we have now. You also ignore the fact that at the last elections there were, for want of a better word, protest votes around Europe so there is no guarantee the current rules on free movement won't change. As for the final UKIP option, there is no guarantee that by coming out we will be successful but we will still have governments that play to the tune of business rather than the electorate!

Sure, but wouldn't you say the biggest assumption is that EZ consolidates and the EZ electorates support the surrender of their fiscal sovereignty?

If this consolidation doesn't happen the EZ is a busted flush. I have no doubts that the EU and the politicians will be prepared to do what it takes, but that could store up political unrest.

If it does happen the EU changes from its current construct, it won't matter whether the EZ stabilises and is successful or not really, because the priority for the EZ will be the EZ and that will change the EU's relationship with the UK.

I am not suggesting the UK will be successful, or completely independent if it leaves, however that does not mean success is a forgone conclusion within the EU either. The EZ is already broke, it is a big assumption that those who broke it can fix it.

 

[spring hall convert]

Interesting - http://order-order.com/2014/10/16/ashcroft-poll-shows-ukip-helping-labour-in-tory-held-marginals/

 

[cunning fergus]

Interesting - http://order-order.com/2014/10/16/ashcroft-poll-shows-ukip-helping-labour-in-tory-held-marginals/

Yep, and so now we see the predictable lurch in tory policy and mantra to counter the UKIP surge:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/16/rochester-strood-byelection-tory-eu-migrants

As you identified yesterday though, Labour are marching to exactly the same tune:

http://labourlist.org/2014/08/ed-balls-suggests-eu-immigration-curb-to-deal-with-ukip-threat/

To be fair to Balls, he is very sorry about Labour’s unrestricted migration policy, as he undoubtedly was for failing to regulate the Banks:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/jun/06/ed-balls-labour-immigration-wages

I am sure that sentiment is based on a genuine empathy that he has for the British working class, as oppose to his political ambition..............do you think this would have happened without UKIP?

Its a disgrace that we are governed by such a group of duplicitous, conniving and unprincipled shits. I would have more respect for them if they stuck by their original views on migration, and continued to defend it on the basis that we all benefit than this abject surrender to populism just to either remain in power or gain power. Gillian Duffy must be laughing her head off.

 

[Soulman]

Interesting to see how the Greens have coped with running Brighton Council.. see what you get with a "protest vote"?

It's like revolutionaries, they all know what or whom they DON'T want, but can't agree on what they DO want.

Interesting blog, re the Greens in Brighton, is this what's going on? Ukip of the left? The Greens can't even get it right in Brighton.
"I have just moved back to Brighton, and I am happy to report that it remains as shambolic as ever.
Such is their incompetence that the Greens often hurt the very causes they push. While I was staggered to find that I might face a £50,000 fine if I put something plastic in the paper-only recycling bin outside my house, I was amused to discover that most people just ignore the warnings and dump away — with the result that Green Brighton now ranks 302nd out of 326 councils for its recycling record. The problem is a mix of poor information, a strange recycling collection programme open to abuse, and ceaseless disruptions to the service that mean people have given up trying to do ‘the right thing’.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features...lesson-in-why-it-is-a-disaster-to-vote-green/

 

[Bold Seagull]

Interesting blog, re the Greens in Brighton, is this what's going on? Ukip of the left? The Greens can't even get it right in Brighton.
"I have just moved back to Brighton, and I am happy to report that it remains as shambolic as ever.
Such is their incompetence that the Greens often hurt the very causes they push. While I was staggered to find that I might face a £50,000 fine if I put something plastic in the paper-only recycling bin outside my house, I was amused to discover that most people just ignore the warnings and dump away — with the result that Green Brighton now ranks 302nd out of 326 councils for its recycling record. The problem is a mix of poor information, a strange recycling collection programme open to abuse, and ceaseless disruptions to the service that mean people have given up trying to do ‘the right thing’.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features...lesson-in-why-it-is-a-disaster-to-vote-green/

What a complete load of tosh reporting though. Labour and Conservatives hardly have a gleaming record of running the council and they never faced the cuts the Greens have faced since 2011. The recycling systems in this area were well in place before 2011 - what were the Greens going to do, with a massively reduced budget completely overhaul the recycling in the city!? As for the i360, I seem to remember people also made the same comments about Mark Barfield's London Eye - now a landmark recognised throughout the world. They've fought on local issues like Hove Park School rightly retaining it's current status as a local authority school, and the 20mph speed limit has actually bough most drivers down to 30 (rather than 35 touching 40) which has made most of these roads much safer. Facing massive cuts they've done all right.

 

[Soulman]

What a complete load of tosh reporting though. Labour and Conservatives hardly have a gleaming record of running the council and they never faced the cuts the Greens have faced since 2011. The recycling systems in this area were well in place before 2011 - what were the Greens going to do, with a massively reduced budget completely overhaul the recycling in the city!? As for the i360, I seem to remember people also made the same comments about Mark Barfield's London Eye - now a landmark recognised throughout the world. They've fought on local issues like Hove Park School rightly retaining it's current status as a local authority school, and the 20mph speed limit has actually bough most drivers down to 30 (rather than 35 touching 40) which has made most of these roads much safer. Facing massive cuts they've done all right.

Fair enough, just asked.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Fair enough, just asked.

Yeah, sorry wasn't aimed at you, but I'd seen that report earlier today and I really don't know how some of these journalists earn a living...

 

[Greyrun]

More good news for UKIP,since 2000 migrants have cost the public finances 100 billion.

 

[daveinprague]

More good news for UKIP,since 2000 migrants have cost the public finances 100 billion.

Thats going to be an interesting read. Do you have a link?

 

[Silk]

More good news for UKIP,since 2000 migrants have cost the public finances 100 billion.

How?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Thats going to be an interesting read. Do you have a link?

I suspect he's stirring as he's been very selective with that statement. It also depends on who's figures you believe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497

 

[Greyrun]

Thats going to be an interesting read. Do you have a link?

Report by University College London,its in all the national papers.Migrants from the EU area contribute 20 billion whereas those from outside cost 120 billion.

 

[daveinprague]

ok..

 

[Bold Seagull]

Report by University College London,its in all the national papers.Migrants from the EU area contribute 20 billion whereas those from outside cost 120 billion.

So it's not good news for UKIP at all then?

 

[El Presidente]

I suspect he's stirring as he's been very selective with that statement. It also depends on who's figures you believe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497

Anyone who believes Migration Watch needs their bumps felt.