TRAFALGAR DAY - a national disgrace!

[Lord Bracknell]

Are you talking about the American war of Independance? That was before Trafalgar surely?

I think he's talking about the War of 1812, between Britain and the US.

Although some might claim that it ended in a draw, we basically lost it.

Curiously, it doesn't figure very large in British school history books.

You must remember the Lonnie Donegan song, though, Yorkie.

 

[perseus]

http://www.smartgroups.com/message/...Id=10658&Pos=0,1&fn=message.html&ct=text/html

Link to a photograph of a reproduction of a painting from the Marlipins Museum, Shoreham. They also have a model of the Victory and pictures and a Times News Report (supplied by my family) and other stuff.

 

[London Irish]

I think he's talking about the War of 1812, between Britain and the US.

That's the one. Famous for the British Navy bombing the White House

 

[Yorkie]

I think he's talking about the War of 1812, between Britain and the US.

Although some might claim that it ended in a draw, we basically lost it.

Curiously, it doesn't figure very large in British school history books.

You must remember the Lonnie Donegan song, though, Yorkie.

I do. The Battle of New Orleans

'We fired our guns and the British kept acoming
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico'

I didn't realise it was that particular war though

 

[dougdeep]

The victor writes the history books. It was always thus.

 

[Hungry Joe]

Lazy and patronising and jingoistic

Do you normally insult people who have a different opinion to you?

What is wrong with anniversaries?
Do you celebrate birthdays?
Our history shaped this country for better or worse and we should (hopefully) learn lessons from it.

It's hardly insulting is it, just pointing out that using the 'pc' tag to someone who is rather fond of posting pornography, enjoys using the word !!!! a lot, is partial to a ruck at football if one kicks off and has openly criticised our sanctimonious government and the misguided policies of positive discrimination on here is both lazy and about as wide of the mark as you can get.

And where have I said that there's anything wrong with anniversaries? My original point was that Butterball was wrong with his assumption that the commemorations were unimportant to most people and passed them by. However the national holidays we already celebrate are centuries old and in truth have little to do for most people with the original reason for them. They tend to be an excuse to have a well earned rest and knees up with friends and family, which is a good enough reason for me. That's a bit different to declaring a brand new public holiday to celebrate an ancient victory, as important historically as it was, over one of our closet European neighbours.

 

[Yorkie]

The longest period of work is between August and December without a Bank Holiday.
European countries have more Bank Holidays than we do. There isn't any other 'reason' to award a new holiday than the anniversary so it would be a handy tag to put to it.

We do have two fairly recent Bank Holidays as May Bank and New Years Day are both new additions since I started work.

I'll ignore your first paragraph as I can't be bothered to argue.

 

[Hungry Joe]

Can't be bothered or just can't argue when you know you've made a mistake? I'd have a lot more time for you Yorkie if you dropped the righteousness for once in a while and admitted you'd got something wrong. I apologised to you for a 'Christian' jibe I made because in hindsight I realised it was unfair and off the mark, why can't you do the same?

As for having a reason for a new public holiday, I'm sure there must be plenty of reasons for one that are more relevant and less potentially inflammatory. Surely using a battle as an excuse for keeping up with the Pompadous is a little insulting to it's the importance of it.

 

[Yorkie]

Can't be bothered or just can't argue when you know you've made a mistake? I'd have a lot more time for you Yorkie if you dropped the righteousness for once in a while and admitted you'd got something wrong. I apologised to you for a 'Christian' jibe I made because in hindsight I realised it was unfair and off the mark, why can't you do the same?

As for having a reason for a new public holiday, I'm sure there must be plenty of reasons for one that are more relevant and less potentially inflammatory. Surely using a battle as an excuse for keeping up with the Pompadous is a little insulting to it's the importance of it.

I cannot apologise for having a different opinion. I have been brought up in a Naval tradition. My Dad served 33 years in the Navy. I also served. I am proud of our Naval tradition in this country and proud of Nelson and his victory.
That is me and how I am. Old fashioned maybe but my upbringing was that way.

 

[Hungry Joe]

I cannot apologise for having a different opinion. I have been brought up in a Naval tradition. My Dad served 33 years in the Navy. I also served. I am proud of our Naval tradition in this country and proud of Nelson and his victory.
That is me and how I am. Old fashioned maybe but my upbringing was that way.

But I'm not asking you to apologise for having a different opinion, jeez! Just asking that you admit you were wrong for trumping out the old 'pc brigade' rubbish. As far as being proud of our Naval tradition and past we probably have a lot more in common than you think. That's the whole point; as soon as anyone dares to question something related to war or nationas history they get labelled as pc (depending who they are of course, some critics are allowed their say without this pointless insult if they happen to be mates of yours).

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I think he's talking about the War of 1812, between Britain and the US.

Although some might claim that it ended in a draw, we basically lost it.

Curiously, it doesn't figure very large in British school history books.

You must remember the Lonnie Donegan song, though, Yorkie.

The U.S school books are even better than that, they claim they have never been invaded - apart from the fact that Canada burnt down the white house - TWICE

 

[Yorkie]

But I'm not asking you to apologise for having a different opinion, jeez! Just asking that you admit you were wrong for trumping out the old 'pc brigade' rubbish. As far as being proud of our Naval tradition and past we probably have a lot more in common than you think. That's the whole point; as soon as anyone dares to question something related to war or nationas history they get labelled as pc (depending who they are of course, some critics are allowed their say without this pointless insult if they happen to be mates of yours).

Ok so the phrase pc brigade offended you. I am sorry I typed that.

 

[Hungry Joe]

Ok so the phrase pc brigade offended you. I am sorry I typed that.

It's not so much offensive as annoying to be honest Yorkie, it takes a lot more than that to offend me. Thanks for the apology though, it is appreciated. Maybe this little episode will be usefull in the long run at promoting proper debate without the need to labell each other................I doubt it though

 

[dougdeep]

Had a bad weekend Joe?

 

[Hungry Joe]

Had a bad weekend Joe?

Have to admit I am a bit more grouchy than normal doug. I shall do my very best to lighten up today.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

The U.S school books are even better than that, they claim they have never been invaded - apart from the fact that Canada burnt down the white house - TWICE

Why do they blame the Canadians? It was the British wot dun it.

Wikipedia - The Burning of Washington

Background

At the time, Washington was a minor port with only about 8,000 inhabitants — about 1,300 of whom were slaves. What it lacked in strategic value, however, it made up in symbolic value. The British and Canadians had long sought revenge on the United States for the destruction they had caused on the capital of Upper Canada at York after the Battle of York in 1813. The naval commander, George Cockburn, wrote that he hoped the destruction of the new republic's capital might demoralize the enemy as well.

On Wednesday, August 24, 1814, backed by reinforcements newly arrived from Europe, the British General Robert Ross defeated the American forces at the Battle of Bladensburg, laying open the path to the capital.

During the American retreat, President James Madison sought out Secretary of War John Armstrong to see what the plan was for the defense of the capital. Armstrong reported that there was none; he had expected the British to turn next to Baltimore. The President, his cabinet and many other government officials fled to the mountains of Virginia. Most residents of Washington had already abandoned the city; preservation of the government's documents and records had been largely left to clerks and slaves.

Occupation and burning

On August 25, the advance guard of British troops marched to Capitol Hill; they were too few in number to occupy the city, so Ross intended to destroy as much of it as possible. He sent a party under a flag of truce to agree to terms, but they were attacked by partisans from a house at the corner of Maryland Avenue, Constitution Avenue, and Second Street NE. This was to be the only resistance the soldiers met. The house was burned, but the soldiers were infuriated, and the Union Jack was raised above Washington.

The buildings housing the Senate and House of Representatives—construction on the trademark central rotunda of the Capitol had not yet begun—were set ablaze not long after. The interiors of both buildings, including the Library of Congress, were destroyed, although the thick walls and a torrential rainfall preserved their exteriors. Admiral Cockburn also entered the building of the anti-British newsletter, National Intelligencer, intending to burn it down; however, a group of neighborhood women persuaded him not to because they were afraid the fire would spread to their neighboring houses.

The troops then turned north down Pennsylvania Avenue toward the President's House. First Lady Dolley Madison remained there after many of the government officials—and her own bodyguard— had already left, gathering valuables, documents and other items of importance, notably a full-length painting of George Washington by Gilbert Stuart. She was finally persuaded to leave moments before British soldiers entered the building. Once inside, the soldiers found the dining hall set for a dinner for 40 people. After eating all the food they set about destroying the building.

Admiral Cockburn now ordered all the contents of the building to be emptied into the streets and standing on a printing press, he announced he would destroy all the "C"s in the press so that "the rascals can have no further means of abusing my name." Fuel was added to the fires that night to ensure they would continue burning into the next day; the flames were reportedly visible as far away as Baltimore and the Patuxent River.

The British also burned the United States Treasury building and other public buildings. The historic Washington Navy Yard, founded by Thomas Jefferson and the first federal installation in the United States, was burned by the Americans to prevent capture of stores and ammunition. The United States Patent Office building was saved by the efforts of William Thornton—architect of the Capitol and then superintendent of patents—who convinced the British of the importance of its preservation.

During the occupation, a severe storm, which included a tornado passed through, damaging both the invaders and the city, but quickly leaving and helping put out the fires. The occupation of Washington lasted about 26 hours, and within a week the British troops were dispatched to their next target, Baltimore. President Madison and the rest of the government returned to the city, but were in such disarray that they were unable to prosecute the war effectively.

Aftermath

The thick sandstone walls of the President's House survived, although scarred with smoke and scorch marks. Although a popular myth has it that the modern name White House came from the rebuilt mansion being painted white to cover smoke damage, the name is recorded earlier than the war, and it was first painted white in 1798, before it was used by any President.

Of the three objectives of Britain's invasion of the U.S., Lake Champlain, Baltimore and Washington, D.C. this was the only attack that was successful. Although they had succeeded in diverting the necessary attention of Washington away from the war, the field commanders proved themselves and beat back every invasion that the British launched against the U.S. for the rest of the war. Cockburn's belief that the destruction of the capital would demoralize the American populace also proved false. The destruction galvanized thousands to volunteer for the defense of Baltimore.

 

[B.M.F]

Arguably one of the most important historical anniversaries of this proud nation - the 200th anniversary of Nelson's victory and ultimate death - today should have been a public holiday. This victory achieved against incredible odds was one of the nations proudest moments.

Celebrations have been muted and have passed most by without a second thought. The queen is dining on board HMS Victory tonight - big deal!

If we had not won that battle, who knows what would have happened?

This simply would not have happened in any other country and I am both annoyed and extremely disappointed that this once proud nation cannot recognise it's magnificent achievement.

Well said Butterball. It is a disgrace that we do hardly anything to celebrate the Victory. I work on Trafalgar Street, in Trafalgar Place and inside Victory House but there was nothing to commemorate the 200th anniversary

 

[Normal Rob]

Re: Re: TRAFALGAR DAY - a national disgrace!

Well said Butterball. It is a disgrace that we do hardly anything to celebrate the Victory. I work on Trafalgar Street, in Trafalgar Place and inside Victory House but there was nothing to commemorate the 200th anniversary

 

[London Irish]

Re: Re: TRAFALGAR DAY - a national disgrace!

Well said Butterball. It is a disgrace that we do hardly anything to celebrate the Victory. I work on Trafalgar Street, in Trafalgar Place and inside Victory House but there was nothing to commemorate the 200th anniversary

 

[eastlondonseagull]

10,000 people in Trafalgar Square tonight, apparently. Roads were log-jammed.