[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[zefarelly]

I voted for her when I was 30. A few years later and mainly as a direct result of her policies, I ended up leaving the country.

I don't have any regrets, but I was tempted and should have left the country in the late 90's . . . Several work opportunities and some others. . . then I met Mrs Zef. Aus is an option, but frankly no better than here!

 

[Robinjakarta]

Oops Liz, mind those house prices....

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A nutshell for sure.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

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[Randy McNob]

Sunak saying if Truss wins the Tories will lose the next election.

Love this blue on blue stuff, bring it on !

At the end of the day, they vote for who they are told / bunged to vote for, the Murdoch choice, they know she's a complete plank

 

[Stato]

The ghost of failed Friedman policies past Patrick Minford and two tories having their say about the economy on Newsnight. I expect Paul Krugman or Yanis Varoufakis will be along in a minute to provide balance. No? Then maybe Rachel Reeves or someone from the Lib Dems. This is the leftist BBC after all.

Oh, apparently not. After a piece about Grenfell, we're on to a discussion about Conservative Party electioneering with the FT and The Telegraph.

 

[clapham_gull]

The ghost of failed Friedman policies past Patrick Minford and two tories having their say about the economy on Newsnight. I expect Paul Krugman or Yanis Varoufakis will be along in a minute to provide balance. No? Then maybe Rachel Reeves or someone from the Lib Dems. This is the leftist BBC after all.

Oh, apparently not. After a piece about Grenfell, we're on to a discussion about Conservative Party electioneering with the FT and The Telegraph.

Balance is a bit more complicated than simply having someone on with an opposing view and that has got many news channels in trouble in the past.

In any case, they can only have someone on if they agree to appear and there are only so many times Andrew Bridgen will log onto a Zoom call.

Political parties are now very savvy about which news programmes they choose to ignore. Tactically the Lib Dems and Labour are keeping well clear.

Why deflect attention from an internal Tory war ?

One thing that unites the Conservative Party is an attach from the opposite benches.

 

[golddene]

Those %s essentially match the betting odds, which makes sense.

Wouldn't be surprised if Chancellor goes to Mogg, or someone of his ilk.

I absolutely agree, my opinion is she ‘Truss’ will be a puppet PM being instructed by the right wing ERG, Mogg & co, with Johnson also, still in their loop. Apart from blatant lying nothing will change under Truss, just more of the same. They haven’t learned any lessons or admit to any mistakes, only Johnson getting caught in his dishonesty and his behaviour, thinking rules do not apply, or, are for him, has brought about their first choice figureheads removal. Time for plan B.

 

[Stato]

Balance is a bit more complicated than simply having someone on with an opposing view and that has got many news channels in trouble in the past.

In any case, they can only have someone on if they agree to appear and there are only so many times Andrew Bridgen will log onto a Zoom call.

Political parties are now very savvy about which news programmes they choose to ignore. Tactically the Lib Dems and Labour are keeping well clear.

Why deflect attention from an internal Tory war ?

One thing that unites the Conservative Party is an attach from the opposite benches.

Could be a fair point if they were tearing lumps out of each other. They weren't. They were all in agreement that Thatcherism is something worth recreating, but disagreeing about how quickly they should be moving towards it. There was a complete consensus that what the country needs is the short-termist failed economic policies of the 1980s. You know, the ones that completely destroyed manufacturing industry and led to all of the broken communities that they blame on immigration and the EU. You would expect, in the absence of a dissenting voice, it would be the role of the presenter to challenge the view, Apparently not. Balance is obviously more complicated than opposing views, but it certainly isn't served by allowing the hegemony to go unchallenged.

 

[Blue3]

Your left wing pal can cast a vote for the SWP under FPTP. Having PR may mean he gets one SWP MP. Maybe not.

Having PR won't make labour more left wing. At least I hope not.

Let's imagine the electorate is around 30 million. Let's imagine we have 600 parliamenary seats. In a fair system, every parliamentary seat would represent 30,000,000/600 = 50,000 votes. I can tell you now, the SWP has nothing like this number of members (maybe 5,000) and most supporters of this party are members of it. So they don't deserve one seat in parliament. Not under any system.

Let's look at the 2010 election result. The Greens got nearly 300,000 votes. Did they get 6 seats? No, they got one. So they think this is unfair. They are right.

The tories got 10,000,000 votes. This means they should have got around 200 seats. They actually got 306. Labour got 8.5 million votes which should have won them 170 seats. Instead they got 258!. Liberals got 6.8 million votes. That should have won them 136 seats. Instead they got 57 seats. No wonder they want PR!!!!!

Yes, you have a point. Our system disproportionately rewards the more popular parties.

That said, I am not sure how much more power and influence the greens would weild with 6 MPs. And the SWP....well.

But of course you could argue that once a party had obtained a few seats then the nation would get more exposure to that party and then their popularily would increase over time, as it was for the National Socialists in Germany in the 1930s. I call that wishful thinking. If the SWP got any extra exposure they are likely to lose support.

My recommendation to people is . . . . vote! If you are very strongly motivated then propagandize! Look at all the excellent work certain folk do on NSC, promoting their pary of choice. Winner!

A very well reasoned response Harry however my friend voted Labour out of principled support of JC while I vote Labour out of pragmatic support, assuming the majority of voters vote pragmatically because of FPTP, what if PR were available would it not free individuals to vote in a more principled way, would it not make politicians go about there work in a more collaborative and less combative way.

I argue it encourages smaller political groups to work together combining ideas becoming less extreme and more diverse in a pragmatic effort to win seats and have some representation.

Parliament could look very different and be forced to work in a very difficult way our system of FPTP is only used by two nations in Europe and the other one is Belarus, arguably both easily influenced by Russia.

 

[rogersix]

A very well reasoned response Harry however my friend voted Labour out of principled support of JC while I vote Labour out of pragmatic support, assuming the majority of voters vote pragmatically because of FPTP, what if PR were available would it not free individuals to vote in a more principled way, would it not make politicians go about there work in a more collaborative and less combative way.

I argue it encourages smaller political groups to work together combining ideas becoming less extreme and more diverse in a pragmatic effort to win seats and have some representation.

Parliament could look very different and be forced to work in a very difficult way our system of FPTP is only used by two nations in Europe and the other one is Belarus, arguably both easily influenced by Russia.

Top post!

 

[Billy the Fish]

Europe and the other one is Belarus, arguably both easily influenced by Russia.

Everyone loves to play the Russia card.

Belarus is ex-soviet with a puppet government, it's not remotely comparible.

Russia tried to meddle with elections here and influence through the back door via donations, that's undeniable. At least over here there's a stigma attached to it.

What nobody ever mentions is Germany who are influenced in plain sight. Everyone's favourite leader was persuaded to spend the last 20 years making Germany dependant on Russian energy and run the army into the ground. The last leader went straight into a job at Gazprom. The current leader, 5 months ito the invasion, is still sh1tting himself that he might offend putin FFS.

So who is more influenced by Russia?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

A very well reasoned response Harry however my friend voted Labour out of principled support of JC while I vote Labour out of pragmatic support, assuming the majority of voters vote pragmatically because of FPTP, what if PR were available would it not free individuals to vote in a more principled way, would it not make politicians go about there work in a more collaborative and less combative way.

I argue it encourages smaller political groups to work together combining ideas becoming less extreme and more diverse in a pragmatic effort to win seats and have some representation.

Parliament could look very different and be forced to work in a very difficult way our system of FPTP is only used by two nations in Europe and the other one is Belarus, arguably both easily influenced by Russia.

Doesn’t it also force the bigger parties to work together? Has there been anything other than coalition government in Germany since the Second World War? Wasn’t their system designed to nullify extremes? As a believer in collaborative working, it’s what I would like to see.

 

[beorhthelm]

A very well reasoned response Harry however my friend voted Labour out of principled support of JC while I vote Labour out of pragmatic support, assuming the majority of voters vote pragmatically because of FPTP, what if PR were available would it not free individuals to vote in a more principled way, would it not make politicians go about there work in a more collaborative and less combative way.

you think european politicans and elections are all carebear love between parties? sure, once they select their members (from the party list, no more voting out people disliked) they might frame around common ground for a short while, discarding many principled positions (see Liberals student loans). that might be centrist, until it isnt and left or right coalitions come in (Italy, Poland). reminder that in 2015 PR would have delivered 12% UKIP MPs, likely Farage and friends in cabinet as part of a coalition.

im certainly coming around to the idea of some alternative from of voting, the motivations of many seems an expectation their preference will win as a result. thats not a sound, honest basis for change.

 

[beorhthelm]

Doesn’t it also force the bigger parties to work together? Has there been anything other than coalition government in Germany since the Second World War? Wasn’t their system designed to nullify extremes? As a believer in collaborative working, it’s what I would like to see.

it encourages smaller, more politically focused parties, which then form together in government. might get centerist coalition as a result, might not. in Germany the largest left and largest right arent going to work together, the SPD has worked with Greens and Liberals, previously two Christian Democrat parties worked together.

 

[crodonilson]

New Yacht for Her Majesty

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/liz-truss-calls-businesses-help-27546033

 

[A1X]

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[WATFORD zero]

you think european politicans and elections are all carebear love between parties? sure, once they select their members (from the party list, no more voting out people disliked) they might frame around common ground for a short while, discarding many principled positions (see Liberals student loans). that might be centrist, until it isnt and left or right coalitions come in (Italy, Poland). reminder that in 2015 PR would have delivered 12% UKIP MPs, likely Farage and friends in cabinet as part of a coalition.

im certainly coming around to the idea of some alternative from of voting, the motivations of many seems an expectation their preference will win as a result. thats not a sound, honest basis for change.

And if, somehow UKIP had found itself with 12 MPs in some sort of coalition Government (which I think would be extremely unlikely) how would that have changed where we find ourselves in 2022

*edit* Just seen that you think they would have a few of those 12 MPs in Cabinet

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Everyone loves to play the Russia card.

Belarus is ex-soviet with a puppet government, it's not remotely comparible.

Russia tried to meddle with elections here and influence through the back door via donations, that's undeniable. At least over here there's a stigma attached to it.

What nobody ever mentions is Germany who are influenced in plain sight. Everyone's favourite leader was persuaded to spend the last 20 years making Germany dependant on Russian energy and run the army into the ground. The last leader went straight into a job at Gazprom. The current leader, 5 months ito the invasion, is still sh1tting himself that he might offend putin FFS.

So who is more influenced by Russia?

Britain. How many politicians have accepted Russian money? People like Carrie Johnson & Dominic Cummings as Friends of Russia? How many countries have a Russian in Parliament and what happened to Johnson when he gave his security the slip in Italy?
Who organised the Salisbury poisonings?
Who funds 55 Tufton Street?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

you think european politicans and elections are all carebear love between parties? sure, once they select their members (from the party list, no more voting out people disliked) they might frame around common ground for a short while, discarding many principled positions (see Liberals student loans). that might be centrist, until it isnt and left or right coalitions come in (Italy, Poland). reminder that in 2015 PR would have delivered 12% UKIP MPs, likely Farage and friends in cabinet as part of a coalition.

im certainly coming around to the idea of some alternative from of voting, the motivations of many seems an expectation their preference will win as a result. thats not a sound, honest basis for change.

The DUP kept Theresa May afloat in 2017, but none of them were put into government positions.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

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Give these kids voting rights and we'll be 10 x better off.