Tony Blair. War criminal,yes or no ?

[symyjym]

Yep, I see your point entirely.

For me, Blair was a bit part player in all of this - as the UK is. He was able to agree to go to war because Bush went to war. And essentially, Bush was a puppet president and the real power behind that throne will never be known. Take your guess, but I'd say people like Rumsfeld were much more connected. So, somewhere a powerful lobby took the decision to say war would be good and the political, moral and economic stars aligned and bingo war happens.

We all know that behind war there's money to be made. When the money men are saying 'let's do it' then war happens. Politicians think they are in control. They're not.

I agree that Blair rather threw himself into the frying pan by taking on the Middle East envoy job. I'd have thought he would have wanted to distance himself from it. In all honesty he probably knows it was one almighty screw up and he's still trying to put it right. he'll take that to his grave.

Yep it adds insult to injury and just goes to show how elitist and unbalanced the world is.

There is still a certain amount of honour when someone admits they made mistakes, in fact it makes you human. Leaving it to God to judge you is a weak easy way out.

 

[symyjym]

Don't think Blair has ever suggested he is hiding behind God as you imply. His comment is the same that anyone with religious convictions would use for any decision they make.

Disagree, we are all responsible for our own actions and we don't need God to judge ourselves even if there is a God.

 

[drew]

Disagree, we are all responsible for our own actions and we don't need God to judge ourselves even if there is a God.

How can you disagree? You (and I for that matter), don't agree there is a God and quite rightly judge ourselves but if someone has religious convictions then they will believe they will be judged by their God.

 

[symyjym]

How can you disagree? You (and I for that matter), don't agree there is a God and quite rightly judge ourselves but if someone has religious convictions then they will believe they will be judged by their God.

But the Pope warned and pleaded against Bush and Blair going to war. They are both Catholic and the Pope is the leader of their religion.

Not only did they undermine the UN they undermined their own religion.

 

[drew]

But the Pope warned and pleaded against Bush and Blair going to war. They are both Catholic and the Pope is the leader of their religion.

Not only did they undermine the UN they undermined their own religion.

Firstly, Blair wasn't a confirmed catholic at the time although I believe he was practising as one. However, with regard to the Popes, Jean Paul II was against the first gulf war which followed the invasion of Kuwait!!! What wars have Popes in the past ever endorsed. Pope Benedict was in the Hitler Youth albeit there may be not voluntary! And what of the current Pope, what would be his view of an Argentine invasion of the Falklands!!!! Finally, I very much suspect the majority of catholics considered it more important to be judged by God rather than an elected official of the church!

 

[symyjym]

Firstly, Blair wasn't a confirmed catholic at the time although I believe he was practising as one. However, with regard to the Popes, Jean Paul II was against the first gulf war which followed the invasion of Kuwait!!! What wars have Popes in the past ever endorsed. Pope Benedict was in the Hitler Youth albeit there may be not voluntary! And what of the current Pope, what would be his view of an Argentine invasion of the Falklands!!!! Finally, I very much suspect the majority of catholics considered it more important to be judged by God rather than an elected official of the church!

He may have been I can't remember that far back, but I do remember that Bush snr didn't say he was working on the instruction of God and Jon Major didn't didn't ever say he will be judged by him. In any case the first Gulf War had the backing from the UN and the rest of the world so it shouldn't really be compared.

We live in a secular country and religion and politics should never be used together. This is a crime in itself.

It is really about if you believe that someone believes in their faith, or they are using a faith to lever a deception.

 

[Kumquat]

Somebody might be able to clarify this, but surely he is guilty for the rendition stuff. War crimes include illegal transfer or deportation. Other ministers and officials were complicit in that but I assume Blair gave the OK for it.

 

[symyjym]

Somebody might be able to clarify this, but surely he is guilty for the rendition stuff. War crimes include illegal transfer or deportation. Other ministers and officials were complicit in that but I assume Blair gave the OK for it.

It was a bloody mess full of double standards.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Whetever the legal position, for many people (including me) Blair is morally a war criminal. He took the country to war acting on a personal promise, for questionable motives. He had to persuade his own party, government, and country, using questionable means, leading to sons and daughters, brothers and sisters losing limbs and lives.

 

[Simster]

Whetever the legal position, for many people (including me) Blair is morally a war criminal. He took the country to war acting on a personal promise, for questionable motives. He had to persuade his own party, government, and country, using questionable means, leading to sons and daughters, brothers and sisters losing limbs and lives.

Nicely put. As you rightly said at the time; make your mistakes with interest rates, not other people's lives.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Nicely put. As you rightly said at the time; make your mistakes with interest rates, not other people's lives.

I was going to stay off this thread - our voices were heard loud and often at the time. But when it comes out about recommending people who are accused of breaking the law having a Hutton style inquiry - it is sickening. And of course he will say he meant it in a different way - but people are not stupid.

 

[Lenny Rider]

But the Pope warned and pleaded against Bush and Blair going to war. They are both Catholic and the Pope is the leader of their religion.

Not only did they undermine the UN they undermined their own religion.

As did the Dixie Chicks, as reported in Michale Moore's Oscar speech.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

As did the Dixie Chicks, as reported in Michale Moore's Oscar speech.

That reference was on the Simpsons the other night.

 

[MarioOrlandi]

The word you are looking for Rex is hindsight. From the mistakes of the second war todays "Rules of Engagement" were made, and the UN given teeth to back them up. Unlike its predecessor the "League of Nations" formed after the "First World War"

 

[dangull]

What did we achieve in Iraq, is it a better place now, or is it easier to make sure the West can get its oil ? Countless lives lost in Afghanistan and the Taliban set to take over when GB and USA leave. Osama bin Laden was executed some time ago, which i thought we were there in the first place.

 

[symyjym]

Panarama.

A good watch

 

[Don Quixote]

What makes a law legal anyway? Is it just because the UN security council allows it? It could still be wrong couldn't it?

 

[Blue3]

No I believe that based on the evidence available at the time that both the British and USA Governments together with those advising them from the intelligence agencies thought Iraq was a threat

In hindsight that appears to have been wrong very wrong but hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

[symyjym]

No I believe that based on the evidence available at the time that both the British and USA Governments together with those advising them from the intelligence agencies thought Iraq was a threat

In hindsight that appears to have been wrong very wrong but hindsight is a wonderful thing

If you watch the Panorama video in my last post and all the parts it is clear that Blair acted with deception on many levels. The documentary is not a glorified conspiracy video and it has a very good overview on why, when and how we went to war.

Have a look and let me know if you have a change of view.

 

[readingstockport]

No I believe that based on the evidence available at the time that both the British and USA Governments together with those advising them from the intelligence agencies thought Iraq was a threat

In hindsight that appears to have been wrong very wrong but hindsight is a wonderful thing

Did you even watch that Panorama link above? It shows fairly conclusively that both the US and UK governments knew Iraq was not a threat to either of our countries and that they lied to slaughter hundreds of thousands Iraqis and UK/US servicemen.

but hey, Haliburton (prop D Cheny) made billions of dollars so I think we know why they did it really.