Tonight - More4, The God Delusion

[bhaexpress]

This is how religion works, when something good happens, it's "Praise the Lord". When something bad happens it's "God's Will". I guess that explains everything although why doesn't he just make up his mind ?

 

[Gilliver's Travels]

Your whole premise is based around blaming a natural process for a disaster. No, it's about the improbability of a 'loving father' who happily mass-murders his own innocent children and babies.

But it wasn't the natural disaster that necessarily killed the people. It was peoples stupidity that lead to their demise. Stupid children, stupid babies. Fancy choosing to live anywhere near the Indian Ocean. They deserved to die!

If you saw a Tsnuami hit an unpopulated area you'd wonder in awe at the power and force created by it. I know I would. And what fun you'd have, putting all those babies in its path, and watching them all drown!!

The unending willingness of otherwise intelligent religious believers to manufacture excuses for these 'Acts of God' is inexplicable. Even our super-intelligent Archbishop of Canterbury has trouble with that one.

The more obvious conclusion would be far less embarrassing. That there are no gods: no God, Yaweh, Allah, Zeus, nor Woden. No devils, no goblins and no fairies. Just nature.

 

[daveinprague]

And still at the end of the day, people who worship god, ONLY know about him from being TAUGHT about him, and mostly taught about him from the Bible, or Koran, or other scriptures which was written by MAN a couple of thousand years ago following in the Chinese whispers tradition of story telling.
'Knowing him' and attributing consciousness and the like to him is a bit too thin for me to take seriously.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I thought it was a very good programme, and some of the people he met were very very scary... I now know that as an Athiest I should sort my women out and stop them dressing like whores.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

The unending willingness of otherwise intelligent religious believers to manufacture excuses for these 'Acts of God' is inexplicable. Even our super-intelligent Archbishop of Canterbury has trouble with that one.

The more obvious conclusion would be far less embarrassing. That there are no gods: no God, Yaweh, Allah, Zeus, nor Woden. No devils, no goblins and no fairies. Just nature.

It's an act of nature, not an act of "God"

If you're happy to just accept that these forces of nature just came to be good for you.

I have actually thought about why I believe in something.

Which is more than a lot of people who simply live by the mantra "If I can't see it, it can't exist".

I'd really love you opinion on the big bang.



And yes people are stupid when it comes to where they live at times. If you build a village at the bottom of a volcano don't moan when it erupts and wipes out your town.

 

[CHAPPERS]

I thought it was a very good programme, and some of the people he met were very very scary... I now know that as an Athiest I should sort my women out and stop them dressing like whores.

Yeah, the bit about the Evangelist faith school was pretty alarming.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

And still at the end of the day, people who worship god, ONLY know about him from being TAUGHT about him, and mostly taught about him from the Bible, or Koran, or other scriptures which was written by MAN a couple of thousand years ago following in the Chinese whispers tradition of story telling.
'Knowing him' and attributing consciousness and the like to him is a bit too thin for me to take seriously.

What programmed the human mind to strive to survive, to protect its young, to want to reproduce?

All of these primeval drives are already present within in our brains when we are born.

Your premise misses the mark somewhat because there are plenty of "spiritual" people who don't read any texts like the bible or koran.

Nor do they subscribe to any religious organisation yet still have a belief that something on a much bigger scale than us exists and is working within in the cosmos.

 

[beorhthelm]

What programmed the human mind to strive to survive, to protect its young, to want to reproduce?

All of these primeval drives are already present within in our brains when we are born.

as they are in all animals, reptiles, fish, insects. even plants adapt to their environment to ensure their survival and reproduction. whats your point?

 

[daveinprague]

If believing in something, that I believe is a lie, fabrication, whatever, helps you through your day, nobody will condemn you. Not me anyway. Like I said, for me, there is no god. Never have believed the story. Its written and passed down by people who had vested interests in peddling the story, be it power, favour etc.
Fairly sure that would go for other 'gods'.
God being an ethereal being is a bit of a weird excuse as well. Wasnt the Jesus character the son of God? He had human form. If God can give his son human form, im sure he could give it to himself. Im in human form (despite what my sister says) not in an ethereal form. Im supposed to be created in Gods image. None of it makes any sense, and when asking people who follow the story, ive never had the same answer, which suggests to me, that people are making this up as they go along.

On another note...basically about Christianity.
Christ died for our sins...?
What does this actually mean? He died for my sins 2000 years before I was born in his fathers image?
What was the point..? There has since been many more wars, many more catastrophes...did he peak to early.

 

[Acker79]

Very simplistic viewpoint. I don't think anyone really believes that God is up there pushing buttons, e.g. "December 26th, massive Tsuami".

Insurance companies seem to.

But it wasn't the natural disaster that necessarily killed the people. It was peoples stupidity that lead to their demise.

If you build a house in the middle of an area prone to fires you cant then moan when a fire happens and say oh "its Gods fault all these people died".

No, they died because of human failures. not due to any other process.

Makes me think of an episode of The West Wing where President Bartlett is being asked to stop an execution and several people try to find a way for him to do it, but for one reason or another he doesn't, and he has his priest come visit and the priest tells him a story:

You remind me of the man that lived by the river. He heard a radio report that the river was going to rush up and flood the town, and that the all the residents should evacuate their homes. But the man said, "I'm religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me." The waters rose up. A guy in a rowboat came along and he shouted, "Hey, hey you, you in there. The town is flooding. Let me take you to safety." But the man shouted back, "I'm religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me." A helicopter was hovering overhead and a guy with a megaphone shouted, "Hey you, you down there. The town is flooding. Let me drop this ladder and I'll take you to safety." But the man shouted back that he was religious, that he prayed, that God loved him and that God will take him to safety. Well... the man drowned. And standing at the gates of St. Peter he demanded an audience with God. "Lord," he said, "I'm a religious man, I pray, I thought you loved me. Why did this happen?" God said, "I sent you a radio report, a helicopter and a guy in a rowboat. What the hell are you doing here?"

It's an act of nature, not an act of "God"

Isn't God responsible for Nature? Isn't he able to control it (he sent floods, made it rain for 40 days and nights, etc.) Isn't an act of nature an act of god?

 

[Scampi]

You are most likely correct that the Crusades would not have happened without Religion.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

im afraid to say there are Cristians and other faiths that do believe God is directly intervening in everyday life (always handy to invoke god for a "miracle"). some went as far to say the tsunami was a punishment. the Abrahamic god is quite malevolent and tyranical.

That's their right to believe that. Maybe they see things in the world that to them is a sign he exists.

Their actions do not however mean anything when it comes to discussing the presence or non presence of a God.

erm... you did? you were talking about the creation of man: "he created a being". The mental weakness you describe is there because of your god if you beleieve in creation. the parable of Adam and Eve is a good place to start finding flaws in Abrahamic tradition, its a downright sadistic thing to do (God would have known they would fall for the temptation...). what a nice chap. anyway seems you agree with the point i made ("And all bad things are due to mans mental weaknesses..."), which out even acknowledging or realising you do so. I will put it down to both blind faith and lack of critical reasoning.

It is the creation of man.

Without those self conscious parts of our brains we are nothing more than an empty shell devoid of anything but the basic elements found in other animals.

It's only sadistic in your views.

Other may see it as a valuable lesson into what can happen if humans greed gets the better of them.

Which given greed is the single most destructive force in the history of the planet would seem to indicate whomever wrote that parable was all too aware of mans potential.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

as they are in all animals, reptiles, fish, insects. even plants adapt to their environment to ensure their survival and reproduction. whats your point?

Exactly.

What a coincidence it must be that everything aligned perfectly within the planet to produce all these perfectly adapted minds.

We are said to have originally began life as a pile of bacterial goo.

And yet here today all thanks to absolutely everything going exactly right for millions of years we now have a creature with a brain so advanced it its capable of incredible things.

My point really is that people believing in God as their creator aren't that much different to those who hypothesize that we originated in life as a pile of goo.

In the end both require a level of faith/belief to conclude that that is how it is.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Which means you completely can't comprehend that the absence of something doesn't mean it wouldn't have been replaced with another.

If there was no religion we could be still discussing the crusades but instead of Catholic vs Muslim it was Socialist vs Nationalist.

There's been plenty of crusades undertaken in the name of democracy.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Isn't God responsible for Nature? Isn't he able to control it (he sent floods, made it rain for 40 days and nights, etc.) Isn't an act of nature an act of god?

You are talking about the Old Testament.

That's not my thing.

An act of nature is just that, an act of nature.

I don't believe there's a God that pulls string and pushes buttons to make things happen if that helps.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

If believing in something, that I believe is a lie, fabrication, whatever, helps you through your day, nobody will condemn you. Not me anyway. Like I said, for me, there is no god. Never have believed the story. Its written and passed down by people who had vested interests in peddling the story, be it power, favour etc.
Fairly sure that would go for other 'gods'.
God being an ethereal being is a bit of a weird excuse as well. Wasnt the Jesus character the son of God? He had human form. If God can give his son human form, im sure he could give it to himself. Im in human form (despite what my sister says) not in an ethereal form. Im supposed to be created in Gods image. None of it makes any sense, and when asking people who follow the story, ive never had the same answer, which suggests to me, that people are making this up as they go along.

On another note...basically about Christianity.
Christ died for our sins...?
What does this actually mean? He died for my sins 2000 years before I was born in his fathers image?
What was the point..? There has since been many more wars, many more catastrophes...did he peak to early.

To be honest there's no point discussing it with you as your mind is made up.

I believe in a God yet I'm not closed minded to any infinite about of possibilities.

I approach it from the base that I do not know the "absolute" truth, jsut my own truth.

Anyone who claims to know that absolute truth is totally and utterly full of shit. And that applies to thsoe on both sides of the fence.

 

[Acker79]

Edited:
Nevermind. Not really that interested.

 

[Screaming J]

I hadn't intended to watch the programme but in the end did, quite shocking.
Dawkins, I am sure, deliberately chose some of the most out and out whackos to prove his point. He does also come across as a bit of a cold fish and a bit arrogant.

But that doesn't mean he's wrong!

Personally what really appalled me was the evangelical Christians, particularly those in the USA. The fundamentalist Muslims we know about. The ultra-orthodox Jews; complete fruit cakes. But to have people who purport to be Christians saying that its OK to have the death penalty for adultery?

Christ (pun intended)! Have they ever listened to themselves? Their views are almost exactly the same as the Taliban; who no doubt they consider to be their arch enemies.

Proselytising is the problem, not religion itself.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I hadn't intended to watch the programme but in the end did, quite shocking.
Dawkins, I am sure, deliberately chose some of the most out and out whackos to prove his point. He does also come across as a bit of a cold fish and a bit arrogant.

But that doesn't mean he's wrong!

Personally what really appalled me was the evangelical Christians, particurly those in the USA. The fundamentalist Muslims we know about. The ultra-orthodox Jews; complete fruit cakes. But to have people who purport to be Christians saying that its OK to have the death penalty for adultery?

Christ (pun intended)! Have they ever listened to themselves? Their views are almost exactly the same as the Taliban; who no doubt they consider to be their arch enemies.

Proselytising is the problem, not religion itself.

He uses the Michael Moore school of film making to accomplish what he wanted.

Showing a little Nun working with an Aids victim in Africa just wouldn't have had the same effect.

 

[daveinprague]

To be honest there's no point discussing it with you as your mind is made up.

I believe in a God yet I'm not closed minded to any infinite about of possibilities.

I approach it from the base that I do not know the "absolute" truth, jsut my own truth.

Anyone who claims to know that absolute truth is totally and utterly full of shit. And that applies to thsoe on both sides of the fence.

Until there is proof of a God...of course my mind is made up. Picking up something as random as a god, and saying that there is a possibility doesnt make it any more true.

edit: and whats the point of discussing it with somebody who agrees with you..considering the subject matter here. Thats just going to church isnt it?

There is NO evidence of a god any god. None, Zilch,, Nada, so yes....my mind is pretty made up, by what I see, and in the case of gods, thats bugger all.