[Brighton] Thousands queuing for trains at Brighton station

[oneillco]

Keep up yourself luvvie. You blame the authorities for a lack of preparation, yet some skips were hardly used, and by not mentioning them, appear to exonerate the party-goers themselves.

I can't help it if you didn't see those skips you evidently went looking all over town for, but couldn't find.

OK you win, there was ample provision for collecting rubbish all over town and the mounds of plastic bottles and cans were my imagination.

 

[pearl]

It would be interesting to know where these 15 trains on stand by were as I can't see that they would all have been berthed at Lover's Walk Depot in Brighton. That would have meant having to get trains from Eastbourne or Littlehampton or, at a push, Selhurst Depot, and that is disregarding the fact that a lot of scheduled maintenance to trains is done over the weekend. Most available trains would have been in service on Saturday anyway. But the main thing that suggests to me that Angie Doll is making things up is that I cannot see where the extra drivers would have come from, They would normally have a spare man at L'hampton and Eastbourne and possibly a couple of spares at Brighton but Southern don't like spending money so won't want to have forked out for up to a dozen blokes on overtime and not turn a wheel. In my experience that's not how they operate. I would take Ms Doll's assertions with a huge dose of salt.

Quite. They can't manage to run the new shambles of a timetable let alone 15 more trains.

 

[The Large One]

Oh I know. My own personal favourite would be to have a huge ****-off car park at Waterhall complete with a parkway station - a proposal which I accept is completely and utterly out of the question at this moment in time (and indeed for the forseeable future). However at some stage some bullets will have to be bitten, some eggs broken and some sacred cows slaughtered. Either that or Brighton is going to have to downsize its ambitions, and only stage events it can cope with. As I mentioned earlier we're only just about coping with normal summer tourists.

The main reason we're only just coping is because of the ongoing, systematic and deliberate incompetence of GTR. It's clearly beyond their capabilities to run a coherent service - and this, remember, is all being done in order to break the unions.

A well-run train service through summer will see Brighton cope. One-off events like these will test resolve, but are manageable. If the 15 extra trains Angie Doll said were going to materialise actually did so, in a manner where everyone could get on them, we would still have queues, but they would be manageable, and everyone would be gone in reasonable short order. I know we live in a culture where everyone wants to turn up and jump on a train - but when 10,000 want to do so as well, then some decent organisation, and a willingness to carry this out by the rail companies ought to make it largely OK.

A coach service between London and Withdean (or the Black Lion) rather than Pool Valley really oughtn't be beyond the wit of organisers too.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

If the 15 extra trains Angie Doll said were going to materialise actually did so, in a manner where everyone could get on them, we would still have queues, but they would be manageable, and everyone would be gone in reasonable short order. I know we live in a culture where everyone wants to turn up and jump on a train - but when 10,000 want to do so as well, then some decent organisation, and a willingness to carry this out by the rail companies ought to make it largely OK.

We've got a few heavy duty journalists on here. Would be grand if one of them could run with - or pass on to an investigative colleague - Angie Doll's 15 extra trains BS, and also get to the bottom of whose decision it was to lock the gates to the station. And were the queues REALLY gone by 1.30am due to happy smiling customers all being safely dispatched homewards from Brighton station on the 15 extra trains kindly laid on out of the goodness of their hearts - but not publicised in any shape or form - by GTR? Far more likely they all gave up on the locked gates and just pissed off down the beach.

Check out the posts by former/current train drivers a page or two back. They clearly don't believe that 15 trains - and crucially the drivers to, er, drive them - were available on the night.

There's some major institutionalised lying going on here. Somebody could have been crushed to death due to the criminal idiocy by one or more organisations charged with using common sense in crowd management to ensure the public's safety. Unsurprisingly it's the usual local suspects in the frame.

 

[Brovion]

The main reason we're only just coping is because of the ongoing, systematic and deliberate incompetence of GTR. It's clearly beyond their capabilities to run a coherent service - and this, remember, is all being done in order to break the unions.

A well-run train service through summer will see Brighton cope. One-off events like these will test resolve, but are manageable. If the 15 extra trains Angie Doll said were going to materialise actually did so, in a manner where everyone could get on them, we would still have queues, but they would be manageable, and everyone would be gone in reasonable short order. I know we live in a culture where everyone wants to turn up and jump on a train - but when 10,000 want to do so as well, then some decent organisation, and a willingness to carry this out by the rail companies ought to make it largely OK.

A coach service between London and Withdean (or the Black Lion) rather than Pool Valley really oughtn't be beyond the wit of organisers too.

Hmmm. I have zero confidence that the rail system will ever get sorted out. Zero. And even if by some miracle it could become a model of Japanese efficiency I still doubt that it could handle all our transport needs for the rest of the 21st century as visitor (and resident) numbers increase. And whilst projects like BML2 would undoubtedly help (given the bottlenecks of the current Victorian line south of Haywards Heath where ONE issue brings the entire system to a halt) I do think Brighton should take a bit of responsibility for trying to solve its problem of visitor access - although I accept that trying to muddle through whilst blaming 3rd parties is a) the British way and b) much easier.

 

[Ernest]

More than likely one train doing a shuttle run between Brighton and Three Bridges , up and down = 2 trains so maybe she was being economical with the facts. 15 trains and drivers being found at 11pm on a Saturday night , got more chance of winning the lottery

 

[The Large One]

We've got a few heavy duty journalists on here. Would be grand if one of them could run with - or pass on to an investigative colleague - Angie Doll's 15 extra trains BS, and also get to the bottom of whose decision it was to lock the gates to the station. And were the queues REALLY gone by 1.30am due to happy smiling customers all being safely dispatched homewards from Brighton station on the 15 extra trains kindly laid on out of the goodness of their hearts - but not publicised in any shape or form - by GTR? Far more likely they all gave up on the locked gates and just pissed off down the beach.

Check out the posts by former/current train drivers a page or two back. They clearly don't believe that 15 trains - and crucially the drivers to, er, drive them - were available on the night.

There's some major institutionalised lying going on here. Somebody could have been crushed to death due to the criminal idiocy by one or more organisations charged with using common sense in crowd management to ensure the public's safety. Unsurprisingly it's the usual local suspects in the frame.

Having asked the commuters' group (laden with timetable nerds), this is what they said...

"I looked on real time trains for last Saturday night which records all trains, there were two extra trains between 10pm - 0004 to London, and one to Three bridges and one to Gatwick. After 0004 there were two further trains. I make that 6 extra trains in that time window (i.e. after 10pm Saturday). Of course the missing 9 extra trains could have been earlier in the day or something."

 

[Acker79]

I was on a train coming back from London. It had been delayed into Victoria by 10 minutes because of 'trespasser on the tracks'. Then it stopped at Burgess Hill for around half an hour. Driver mentioned no trains were leaving Brighton station, which meant no space for incoming trains. We eventually got into Brighton, then waited just past Preston Park for another 10 minutes. Did see one train go through BH toward London, and having seen all the troubles at the station on twitter, I was surprised to see how empty the train was. When we did get off the train, we were directed out via the car park (which I was planning on using to avoid the crowd anyway). Ended up getting home about an hour later than I otherwise would have. Could have been worse, and at least I got home.

When I got to Victoria on my way home, I had four minutes to get the last gatwick express, but I decided to go to the toilet and then go get a cold drink. I wonder what time I would have been home if I did rush...

 

[The Clamp]

These few and far between gigs involving huge stars who never normally play this town will always cause chaos and there will never be any real plan for it because it's not worth it for the infrequency of these events.

They need to get their match day business sorted though. It occurs for 2/3rds of the year and has done for years now and they still foul it up.

 

[Eeyore]

These few and far between gigs involving huge stars who never normally play this town will always cause chaos and there will never be any real plan for it because it's not worth it for the infrequency of these events.

They need to get their match day business sorted though. It occurs for 2/3rds of the year and has done for years now and they still foul it up.

Sounds awfully unfair on those going.

 

[The Clamp]

Sounds awfully unfair on those going.

Possibly.
In this life we must learn to recognise the difference between unfair and unjust. Unjust should be acted upon and rectified. Unjust is never to anyone's benefit. Unfair should be tolerated and put up with for it swings in your favour sometimes. Both these situations forge character.

If you go and see an act like Britney in a small city/large town with a relatively small train station (tiny for a city) on the biggest social event in Brighton's calendar, in the middle of a heatwave at a weekend.....you're gonna have to poke up with a queue. Get over it.

IMHO

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

From the BBC website, Angie Doll, in classic gibberish mode, contradicting herself within two sentences...

GTR spokeswoman Angie Doll said: "We had standby trains. We had an additional 15 trains available."

She said: "When we do events like this, we advertise the trains that are in the public timetable but we also have additional trains."

She said the rail company did not use its additional trains on Saturday.

Seems like it was the Police that shut the station on Saturday.................

But in a joint statement today (August 8), British Transport Police Assistant Chief Constable Charlie Doyle, and Sussex Police Assistant Chief Constable Steve Barry, said: "Saturday saw thousands of people descend on Brighton as part of the Pride celebrations in the city. "Following the celebrations and the event at Preston Park, an exceptionally high volume of people arrived at Brighton railway station to make their return journeys. Due to a number of factors, the number of people who came to the station at once were unprecedented. "It was evident that the queuing system at the station was unable to cope with the number of people, resulting in potentially dangerous overcrowding on the concourse and platforms. This was compounded by the availability of trains at the relevant time. "Just after 11pm, a British Transport Police officer asked a Sussex Police officer to go to the front of the station to make an assessment on the number of people arriving. A decision was quickly made by the Sussex Police officer to close the gates, and with the support of station staff, the station was temporarily closed. "This decision was made on safety grounds to allow the safe departure of passengers on trains. Staggered entry was then managed by police until the station re-opened fully just after midnight. "Safety is our main priority and this decision was necessary in order to prevent further harm coming to passengers and staff within the station. "We understand this decision resulted in people being delayed in getting home, but it was essential to prevent a dangerous situation from escalating. "We will continue to scrutinise our decisions that night and will work with the train operating company and station management team to ensure that the crowd management plans at the station, in particular the queuing arrangements, is reviewed and lessons learnt. "Once again, we would like to thank the public for their understanding and patience following the Brighton Pride event."

 

[Ernest]

But they said on Monday they didn't

 

[rippleman]

Seems like it was the Police that shut the station on Saturday.................

But in a joint statement today (August 8), British Transport Police Assistant Chief Constable Charlie Doyle, and Sussex Police Assistant Chief Constable Steve Barry, said: "Saturday saw thousands of people descend on Brighton as part of the Pride celebrations in the city. "Following the celebrations and the event at Preston Park, an exceptionally high volume of people arrived at Brighton railway station to make their return journeys. Due to a number of factors, the number of people who came to the station at once were unprecedented. "It was evident that the queuing system at the station was unable to cope with the number of people, resulting in potentially dangerous overcrowding on the concourse and platforms. This was compounded by the availability of trains at the relevant time. "Just after 11pm, a British Transport Police officer asked a Sussex Police officer to go to the front of the station to make an assessment on the number of people arriving. A decision was quickly made by the Sussex Police officer to close the gates, and with the support of station staff, the station was temporarily closed. "This decision was made on safety grounds to allow the safe departure of passengers on trains. Staggered entry was then managed by police until the station re-opened fully just after midnight. "Safety is our main priority and this decision was necessary in order to prevent further harm coming to passengers and staff within the station. "We understand this decision resulted in people being delayed in getting home, but it was essential to prevent a dangerous situation from escalating. "We will continue to scrutinise our decisions that night and will work with the train operating company and station management team to ensure that the crowd management plans at the station, in particular the queuing arrangements, is reviewed and lessons learnt. "Once again, we would like to thank the public for their understanding and patience following the Brighton Pride event."

I have highlighted what I think is the most pertinent word in that statement. The numbers turning up at the station may well have been unprecedented but it could hardly have been unexpected.

The organises were publicising well in advance the expected attendence at Pride on Saturday. The train company and police knew how many people had arrived in Brighton by train in the morning / early afternoon. How dumb have you got to be not to expect the same number to be leaving by train after the conclusion of the days festivities?

As we have regularly experienced during the Amex era, Southern + old bill = an incompetent shambles. Betcha not much changes next year either!

 

[Uter]

I have highlighted what I think is the most pertinent word in that statement. The numbers turning up at the station may well have been unprecedented but it could hardly have been unexpected.

The organises were publicising well in advance the expected attendence at Pride on Saturday. The train company and police knew how many people had arrived in Brighton by train in the morning / early afternoon. How dumb have you got to be not to expect the same number to be leaving by train after the conclusion of the days festivities?

As we have regularly experienced during the Amex era, Southern + old bill = an incompetent shambles. Betcha not much changes next year either!

I expect a big problem is that the rosters for drivers needs to be sorted much earlier than that. If you only realise you have too few staff available for the evening in the morning of the same day it's too late. The weather in this country is so unpredictable you can't really be very confident about the forecast until 3 or 4 days before, but even then it might be hard to find the extra staff needed. So in reality they need staff sorted before they know what the weather will be. They probably need to plan for the worst case, which of course means a high risk of paying for staff and trains not really needed. But then who takes the hit? Southern/Thameslink are paid to run a service by the DfT and don't keep any ticket revenue, so they have a disincentive to run extra trains. Is the concert promoter going to be willing to pay for extra services even though a lot of the overcrowding could be caused by people not attending?

From reading about people's experiences I get the impression that two problems were an inefficient queuing system leading to trains running less than full earlier in the evening and no/poor communication with the people locked outside the station leading to anger and anxiety about potentially missing the last train and increasing the chances of crushing when the gates were opened. It's difficult to gauge from the pictures how many people were impacted. Clearly in the thousands, but even if it was 10,000 you could squeeze them onto 5 or 6 class 700s. If you had 2 trains an hour through the night or even until 2 or 3 am and this was properly communicated to the crowd I don't think the situation would have been half as tense. I think people will not mind queuing for a fairly long time if they are certain they will get on a train.

I don't subscribe to the theory that all this means that the infrastructure cannot handle this size of crowd. Have any future concerts in Preston Park finish by 9:30. Get a better queuing system in place. Communicate properly with people in the queues. Run trains until 2am or whenever necessary. I dare say this was the busiest day in Brighton since BBB2, but all the problems it created can be overcome IMO.

Long term I think Brighton could do with much later trains to London on Saturday nights, or even all night like Gatwick. If there are engineering works they could run via Lewes or Littlehampton.

The council should be angry about this as a potential great advert for the city was overshadowed by a shambolic train service which might put off future visitors.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

But they said on Monday they didn't

I hope you're not suggesting that they've once again been caught out being lying ba*****ds.

 

[The Oldman]

Should there not been more stewarding and crush barriers in Queens Road? That is where the danger was. I have heard from people there that they were being crushed as crowds came up from the clock tower not realising the station was closed. As for Sussex police sending one Police Officer to look at Queens road and saying station gates should be closed, they should have been monitoring the situation much earlier.

With all due respect to Edna who I am sure like all the force on the ground do a magnificent job there is something about Sussex Police high command that does not seem to be able to deal with evolving crowd events.

 

[Ernest]

I hope you're not suggesting that they've once again been caught out being lying ba*****ds.

I believe they MISPOKE

 

[jackalbion]

It would be interesting to know where these 15 trains on stand by were as I can't see that they would all have been berthed at Lover's Walk Depot in Brighton. That would have meant having to get trains from Eastbourne or Littlehampton or, at a push, Selhurst Depot, and that is disregarding the fact that a lot of scheduled maintenance to trains is done over the weekend. Most available trains would have been in service on Saturday anyway. But the main thing that suggests to me that Angie Doll is making things up is that I cannot see where the extra drivers would have come from, They would normally have a spare man at L'hampton and Eastbourne and possibly a couple of spares at Brighton but Southern don't like spending money so won't want to have forked out for up to a dozen blokes on overtime and not turn a wheel. In my experience that's not how they operate. I would take Ms Doll's assertions with a huge dose of salt.

They were all there and they all ran, you can check real train times.

 

[Beach Hut]

They were all there and they all ran, you can check real train times.

Yes but that might be the truth of which no-one in this debate wants to hear