dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
You are right, I should have said
I think pro-choice and anti-abortion are just as unhelpful because it implies an anti-choice and pro-abortion position aswell.
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Thou shalt murder
- Thread starter DerbyGull
- Start date
You are right, I should have said
I think pro-choice and anti-abortion are just as unhelpful because it implies an anti-choice and pro-abortion position aswell.
Seagull kimchi
New member
Once again - Is it correct to label all of the women who have chosen to abort as 'murderers' without knowing one single thing about the circumstances of their difficult decision? The 'Crusades' is also an inflammatory word just like 'abortion' can be. None of us are truly innocent.
But "people who are not against abortion" implies either indifference - which is not true, or that they are 'for' abortion.
The issue with abortion comes down to whether you view the zygote/embryo/fetus/baby as an individual and with a right to life that supersedes its host/mother's right to control her own body, or if the woman's right to control her own body supersedes that of the zygote/embryo/fetus/baby to live.
I realise now I mis-typed in my last post. I meant it is pro-choice or pro-life. Those are the labels people use to define themselves, not what are being given to them. Due to the lines in this debate, however you define yourself can be twisted to the other side. If you are against abortion you are inherenty against a woman's right to choose, or the right to proper heath care rather than a back alley "doctor". If you are 'not against abortion' you are either indifferent or 'for abortion'. You are in favour of allowing women to decide to kill off a zygote/embryo/fetus.
What we need (whenever this topic is debated) is for each side to respect how the other defines their position, i.e. for the pro-lifers not to label the others as 'anti-life' or 'pro-choicers' not to label the others 'anti-choice'
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readingstockport
New member
What we need acker is for the anti-abortionists to shut the f*** up and accept that they have no right to force their viewpoints on women. When they do that I will quite happily respect their position. It's not their opposition to abortion I have an issue with, it's their attempts to force their bigoted imaginary friend inspired views on others.
I have edited my post to clarify I mean when discussing the topic.
Falkor
Banned
- Jun 3, 2011
- 5,673
Can i just ask something why is it the womens choice and not a joint one. I understand the women carrys the child but it also takes 2 to get pregnant surely the father should have some say. Even if they are not together.
Just feel the whole its a women right thing one sided when it takes 2 to make the egg.
Just feel the whole its a women right thing one sided when it takes 2 to make the egg.
It only takes one to make an egg. It takes two to fertilise it. Then one to implant it in her womb, that same one to share her blood, nutrients, air, risk her health, play host to a growing foreign mass, while living with a hormone imbalance, becoming vulnerable to a whole host of dangers (including, but not limited to lack of mobility to avoid external dangers, problems with pregnancies and child birth etc).
It's also only one person that has the abortion and has to go through the physical act.
The rights of this is one-sided because the development (and potential abortion) of a baby/fetus is one-sided.
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black & white seagull
Active member
I find the whole 'what about rape' argument a bit of a distraction. What if the woman used a condom, it split, so she took the morning-after pill, and that failed, too. Those are the actions of a responsible woman, who clearly doesn't want to get pregnant, has taken steps to ensure she doesn't get pregnant, and yet she has. Should abortion be unavailable to her, because she wasn't raped? It is impossible to blur the lines.
Also, don't get too bogged down in the idea that it's a traumatic decision. For many women, particularly the sort of woman in my example above, it requires very little consideration. They know it is absolutely not the right time for them to bring a child into the world, end of story. They don't need counselling, what they need is to not have to jump through hoops, obtaining 'permission' from two doctors and then waiting weeks to get an appointment with the NHS.
As Caitlin Moran said in her book, How to be a Woman, it took her longer to choose a kitchen work surface than it did to decide whether she wanted an abortion. Some of you may not like it, but that's the case for an awful lot of women who find themselves in this position.
Also, don't get too bogged down in the idea that it's a traumatic decision. For many women, particularly the sort of woman in my example above, it requires very little consideration. They know it is absolutely not the right time for them to bring a child into the world, end of story. They don't need counselling, what they need is to not have to jump through hoops, obtaining 'permission' from two doctors and then waiting weeks to get an appointment with the NHS.
As Caitlin Moran said in her book, How to be a Woman, it took her longer to choose a kitchen work surface than it did to decide whether she wanted an abortion. Some of you may not like it, but that's the case for an awful lot of women who find themselves in this position.
topbanana36
Well-known member
Seond post ever, blimey readingstockport, your knowledge of the most read and bought fairy tale in all of humanity is outstanding, gonna ask my mates down the pub about elisha tonight and see what they say. Just a thought no more no less.
Lady Gull
New member
So true - my sister in law found herself in this position about 8 years ago - she was in her second year of Uni was with a guy and found herself pregnant - she was on the pill but had been sick - she rang me up in a right paddy and said she wanted rid - she had absolutely made her mind up and she hadn't rung up for advice - she had rung up for help with the logistics of getting there, getting picked up and to finance it!
it was completely the wrong time for her. It was sorted - very early on. She finished her degree - finished with the guy and now is a manager of a big store - she has now met a guy and they have just bought their first house together. She never ever speaks about it and nor do we - we kept it quiet from her mum and to this day no one in the family knows.
She is still adamant that she doesn't want any children and that is her choice.
readingstockport
New member
Actually mr Topbanana. in a study be the Pew forum it was found that atheists consisstently outscore all religions on their knowledge of the various faiths.
U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey - Pew Research Center
Religious IQ: Why do atheists outscore Christians? - The Week
The truth is most religious people do not really know what their fantasy book says, they read what liars like ken ham or kent hovind say and accept it or instead accept the lies of organisations like cmi or anserws in genesis. I try to educate myself in order to shine the bright light of intelligence into the darkest recesses of their ignorance.
Feel free to take the cut down version of the test and see how well you score.
U.S. Religious Knowledge Quiz
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That's a fair view and I accept it. Personally I make no apology for the fact that I am opposed to the concept of abortion (rather than being 'anti-abortion'), however I would NEVER like to see it banned as that wouldn't mean the end of it, it would simply go back to being a messy, evil backstreet affair. I'd just rather no one had them.
I was a lot more blase about it when I was younger, I definitely remember saying "it's a woman's right to choose". Then I saw my daughter for the first time on ultrasound. This was at the stage when she was 'just a foetus', just a clump of cells, incapable of surviving outside her mother's womb and well within the legal limit for termination. However she had a little heart that was beating away the same as yours or mine. My opinion changed instantly.
No, legally abortion is NOT murder. Morally? Well I'm not too sure ...
(This will be my only post on this thread as it is an emotive subject).
Falkor
Banned
- Jun 3, 2011
- 5,673
Yeah i see your point.
With these adverts though, i feel it will encourage people to be more loose in a sense, another worry for me is that this is a company wanting to make a profit, if ya went to the NHS they would speak to you as and give you options and advice, with these companies there not going to give the same advice i don't believe, there going to be looking at making profit and money so are going to side with the abortion side of things, women can often feel awful after these things, are they also offering counselling etc.... for people that might feel upset after.
How's this thread working out for you?
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
Yes, good summary.
Although the issue becomes problematic because, if you take the view that zygote/embryo/fetus/baby is a human life, then it deserves and has a right to protection under the law.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
Good post, and the bolded bit is a really important point. The law reflects the morality of the people, its peoples hearts and minds that have to change if we are to see a society in which people don't choose to have abortions.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,019
woah there, have you seen these adverts? no, of course not because they are allowed until 30th April. you have no idea that will even advertise, let alone how they will market their service. this isnt about marketing a product but informing people that there is an alternative service provider, most people would default to their GP for such matters but for many they might see the family GP as someone they cant go to. there are alternatives, this will allow them to be known to a broader population. for most, the decision will already be half made.
Mutts Nuts
New member
- Oct 30, 2011
- 4,918
Abortion is only murder in the eyes of religous fanatics the same idiots also deem buggery illegal
- Thread starter
- #80
As expected.