The OFFICIAL NFL 2012 Thread

[Hotchilidog]

Mark Emmert is a grand-stander who loves the sound of his own voice, he's actually loving the exposure he's getting over this, he's been on more U.S chat shows in the last couple of weeks than a D-List celebrity.

The fact is the NCAA actually had no power to to dish out these punishments on PSU, this is no more than Caesar justice cause the masses want it. This is a criminal case which is in the hands of the FBI, local law enforcement agencies and the District Attorney.

PSU could easily take the NCAA to court over this and easily win as they have gone well outside their remit, but they wont as the public backlash would be huge. So they have just decided to shut their mouths and take it on the chin, and the NCAA knew they probably would. The NCAA even asked the BIG-10 if they minded ffs.

This piece on ESPN yesterday pretty much shows that the NCAA are just making this up as they go along:

The former chair, who has been involved with the NCAA for nearly three decades, said he couldn't use his name on the record because the case could come before him and the committee he still serves on in an appeals process.
"This is unique and this kind of power has never been tested or tried," the former chair said. "It's unprecedented to have this extensive power. This has nothing to do with the purpose of the infractions process. Nevertheless, somehow (the NCAA president and executive board) have taken it on themselves to be a commissioner and to penalize a school for improper conduct."
The chair said that the NCAA was dealing with a case that is outside the traditional rules or violations. He said this case does not fall within the basic fundamental purpose of NCAA regulations.
"The purpose of the NCAA is to keep a level playing field among schools and to make sure they use proper methods through scholarships and et cetera," the chair said. "This is not a case that would normally go through the process. It has nothing to do with a level playing field. It has nothing to do with whether Penn State gets advantages over other schools in recruiting or in the number of coaches or things that we normally deal with."
The NCAA, the chair said, had never gotten involved in punishing schools for criminal behavior.
"The criminal courts are perfectly capable of handling these situations," the former chair said. "This is a new phase and a new thing. They are getting into bad behavior that are somehow connected to those who work in the athletic department.
"This is an important precedent. And it should be taken with extreme care."


Whats going to happen here is everyone currently associated with PSU and who had nothing what so ever to do with this scandal will be punished i.e the current players, coaching staff, Athletics director and school governors etc. I'm not sure how ruining this program for the next decade is going to solve anything, SMU have never fully recovered from their Death penalty.

Personally I feel the NCAA should have left it to PSU, whilst quietly leaning on them, to come up with some kind of self imposed punishment , no TV exposure for 2 seasons would have been a good start and self imposed fine/donation.

This sort of investigation should be left to the real Police, not the Keystone Cops of the NCAA.

Totally disagree. This is bigger than the protecting the football program at PSU. The current players are protected as they can transfer and be eligible immediately, so they don't suffer. PSU at least will be able to continue their football program although it will obviously not be competitive for a long while yet, but at least they can play, and those students who take part can take an honourable place in the rebuilding of a once great collegiate football program. It can happen just look at the Kentucky basketball program of the early 90's that recovered from a near death penalty to become national champions.

The scandal at Penn State goes beyond the criminal investigations currently involving the police, it goes to the core of collegiate athletics and the duty of care that the institutions themselves have for the young people under their care, and that is why it was correct for the NCAA to get involved. By preserving the program they have at least allowed life to go on at PSU as far as football is concerned, it's just that winning is no longer that important anymore, which given the awful circumstances is just how it should be.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

The fact is the NCAA actually had no power to to dish out these punishments on PSU, this is no more than Caesar justice cause the masses want it. This is a criminal case which is in the hands of the FBI, local law enforcement agencies and the District Attorney.

PSU could easily take the NCAA to court over this and easily win as they have gone well outside their remit, but they wont as the public backlash would be huge. So they have just decided to shut their mouths and take it on the chin, and the NCAA knew they probably would. The NCAA even asked the BIG-10 if they minded ffs.

Wrong. NCAA is college football’s governing body. Their actions had nothing to do with the criminal case. It would not have imposed any penalties without taking independent legal counsel. Their main actions seem to be along the right lines; they have established a trust fund to help similar victims and have erased Paterno’s record which was his main legacy. It may seem that some of the existing students are being financially penalized by the $60M fines through no fault of their own, but NSU has endowments of over one billion dollars so they should be looked after.

Separate legal criminal action has already been taken against Sandusky. The abuse victims can still take individual or class action lawsuits against NSU.

 

[Bladders]

Wrong. NCAA is college football’s governing body. Their actions had nothing to do with the criminal case. It would not have imposed any penalties without taking independent legal counsel. Their main actions seem to be along the right lines; they have established a trust fund to help similar victims and have erased Paterno’s record which was his main legacy. It may seem that some of the existing students are being financially penalized by the $60M fines through no fault of their own, but NSU has endowments of over one billion dollars so they should be looked after.

Separate legal criminal action has already been taken against Sandusky. The abuse victims can still take individual or class action lawsuits against NSU.

You're missing the point. The NCAA rulebook is about recruiting and athletic operations...almost exclusively - gaining a competitive advantage. There is also a general guideline about acting in an ethical manner...but it pertains to ethical manner in carrying out the rules and regulations found in the NCAA's manual. There's nothing what so ever about dishing out punishment for criminal behaviour/matters in the regs because they don't have jurisdiction to punish criminal matters.

The NCAA have now decided by committee what was ethical without any specific evidence on violating any specific NCAA code...except for punishing PSU for "violating laws outside of the NCAA's jurisdiction" by not reporting or Federal laws of due diligence.

Like I said, I really don't think any punishment would hold up in court if PSU were to sue the NCAA for overstepping their bounds.

 

[Bladders]

Can I just say that I'm not trying to stick up for PSU or any thing like that , I'ts more a dig at the NCAA who most of the time sit on their hands when there's evidence of a schools wrong doings looking them squarely in the face where on this occasion they've gone in hard and fast more out of looking good in the public eye even though this really has nothing to do with them.

As for scrapping PSU's record, the NCAA can’t take away things that actually happened on the field. It can think it can take them away, but Penn State beat Temple 45-3 in 2008. It blasted Michigan State 61-7 in 2002. It won the 1999 Alamo Bowl and the 2006 Outback Bowl. It was in all the papers. Like it or not, Paterno is the winningest FBS head coach of all-time, and a few key strokes and an eraser doesn’t change that.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Can I just say that I'm not trying to stick up for PSU or any thing like that , I'ts more a dig at the NCAA who most of the time sit on their hands when there's evidence of a schools wrong doings looking them squarely in the face where on this occasion they've gone in hard and fast more out of looking good in the public eye even though this really has nothing to do with them.

As for scrapping PSU's record, the NCAA can’t take away things that actually happened on the field. It can think it can take them away, but Penn State beat Temple 45-3 in 2008. It blasted Michigan State 61-7 in 2002. It won the 1999 Alamo Bowl and the 2006 Outback Bowl. It was in all the papers. Like it or not, Paterno is the winningest FBS head coach of all-time, and a few key strokes and an eraser doesn’t change that.

I would agree that normally the NCAA are fair game for any amount of criticism sent their way, but on this occasion they have done the right thing. Technically you are correct about their rulebook and the sort of violations that come under their remit, but in this case it is simply not possible for them to wash their hands of the Sandusky scandal because it has nothing to do with 'competitive advantage'. The NCAA does have a responsibility for the well-being of all student athletes and I am please they have acted in the manner they have.

Sadly Paterno has done more damage to his record and reputation than any key strokes or an eraser ever could.

 

[Bladders]

NCAA sends wrong message with Penn State sanctions

Punishment should have served to shift Penn State's focus, not make it harder for Nittany Lions to win football games

Interesting read. NCAA sends wrong message with Penn State sanctions - baltimoresun.com

 

[Bladders]

I would agree that normally the NCAA are fair game for any amount of criticism sent their way, but on this occasion they have done the right thing. Technically you are correct about their rulebook and the sort of violations that come under their remit, but in this case it is simply not possible for them to wash their hands of the Sandusky scandal because it has nothing to do with 'competitive advantage'. The NCAA does have a responsibility for the well-being of all student athletes and I am please they have acted in the manner they have.

Sadly Paterno has done more damage to his record and reputation than any key strokes or an eraser ever could.

Agreed, and a good point made in the article above I posted. When the HC of the Football team is the most powerful man on campus then something is very wrong.

 

[Bladders]

ESPN Ivan Maisel pretty much sums it up for me.

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. -- I have to admit, I expected NCAA president Mark Emmert to march out in military uniform, epaulets gleaming, and pronounce that he should be addressed as Generalissimo.

That press release Sunday, in which the NCAA announced that it would hand down punitive and corrective penalties to Penn State on Monday without its Committee on Infractions ever calling a meeting to order, sounded like the worst form of administrative justice. As anyone who has ever followed an infractions case knows, the NCAA may not use due process, but there is a process that evolves in due time. It can make the tortoise look like the hare -- ask USC. But the NCAA president is not a commissioner. He doesn't wield the imperial power of a Roger Goodell.

The announcement Sunday indicated that the NCAA would ignore its own rules -- not just the procedures but the entirety of the rulebook. Generalissimo Emmert had created his own shopping mall of justice -- a Banana Republic and a Gap. There was all the enforcement that came before Penn State, and there was Penn State.

You can read the hundreds of pages of the NCAA manual from now until the Nittany Lions run onto the field to play Ohio on Sept. 1, and you won't find a single rule that Penn State violated in this case. If that doesn't mean anything, why have a rulebook?

But then His Excellency spoke Monday morning, and it became clear why the NCAA came down so harshly so quickly on Penn State. Emmert and the university presidents who form the NCAA's executive committee saw this case as unprecedented. They saw that it had nothing to do with rules infractions. They saw the model of intercollegiate athletics as we know it at stake.

The presidents felt as if they are at war with an alien culture in which football made the decisions and the university kowtowed to it. That is antithetical to everything that the NCAA model represents, and a little too close to the truth for presidents to stomach. The smart ones live with the hypocrisy every day, secure in the knowledge that athletics unite the university community and create a spirit that builds buildings and fills laboratories.

When that hypocrisy resulted in a pedophile remaining at large, the university presidents didn't like what they saw, especially in the mirror. They lashed out as if they had been attacked.

Moreover, the culture the presidents attacked at Penn State no longer exists. What is left of Penn State is not a combatant. Former president Graham Spanier has been fired and disgraced. Former vice president Gary Schultz and athletic director Tim Curley will be on trial for perjury. Joe Paterno's memory has been stained, a scar bandaged in chain-link fencing where his statue once stood. The university will be in hock for millions in liability payments to the victims abused on its campus and because of its failure to see what is in plain view in hindsight.

It remains possible that the Freeh report didn't come down from Mount Sinai on stone tablets. The NCAA famously doesn't have subpoena power, yet it acted before the three central figures in the Penn State case who are still living have the opportunity to defend themselves -- and speak publicly -- in court. The Paterno family maintains that the whole story has not emerged.

The principle that the presidents are defending, that they are in charge, is worth defending. Nothing would have been lost if they had waited long enough for the remaining avenues to be explored.

Emmert and the presidents didn't care to wait. Let's hope that their impatience doesn't get in the way of their intentions.

 

[Gritt23]

So Bladders, if YOU were head of the NCAA, what would YOU have done to PSU?

 

[Bladders]

So Bladders, if YOU were head of the NCAA, what would YOU have done to PSU?

Nothing If they haven't broken NCAA rules. The NCAA are not Roger Goodell. NCAA are not the law gods of College football.

Just like when the NCAA did nothing about the murder of the Baylor basket ball player back in 2002. They didn't want to know, it was a criminal case.

The powers that be at PSU covered things up yes, but it was CRIMINAL ACTS they covered up.

 

[Gritt23]

Nothing If they haven't broken NCAA rules. The NCAA are not Roger Goodell. NCAA are not the law gods of College football.

Just like when the NCAA did nothing about the murder of the Baylor basket ball player back in 2002. They didn't want to know, it was a criminal case.

The powers that be at PSU covered things up yes, but it was CRIMINAL ACTS they covered up.

And you could rest comfortably at night with that could you?

Y'see there is absolutely no way I could do that if I was in charge of the NCAA. The actions of PSU were so disgusting, and the motives so abhorrent to have put football success above absolutely everything else, and ignoring any "duty of care" towards the students, that I would feel compelled to hit them, and hit them hard. We are talking the RAPE of a 10 year old boy, which was WALKED IN ON, and yet those in charge of the programme just brushed it aside, and allowed the perpetrator to continue unhindered.

The rest of the organisation may have been prepared to turn the other cheek, and pretend it didn't happen, or pretend they had no obligation to do anything about it, but I simply couldn't be like that, and thank the lord that the NCAA weren't prepared to hide on this one, claiming - as you do - that they don't have any powers over this sort of thing.

It just couldn't possibly be right that the NCAA only punish rule breaking, but throw their arms up in the air at serial child abuse, and say, "nothing to do with us." Whether it's specifically covered by their "rules" or not, I strongly believe they had a moral duty to act.

 

[Bladders]

And you could rest comfortably at night with that could you?

Y'see there is absolutely no way I could do that if I was in charge of the NCAA. The actions of PSU were so disgusting, and the motives so abhorrent to have put football success above absolutely everything else, and ignoring any "duty of care" towards the students, that I would feel compelled to hit them, and hit them hard. We are talking the RAPE of a 10 year old boy, which was WALKED IN ON, and yet those in charge of the programme just brushed it aside, and allowed the perpetrator to continue unhindered.

The rest of the organisation may have been prepared to turn the other cheek, and pretend it didn't happen, or pretend they had no obligation to do anything about it, but I simply couldn't be like that, and thank the lord that the NCAA weren't prepared to hide on this one, claiming - as you do - that they don't have any powers over this sort of thing.

It just couldn't possibly be right that the NCAA only punish rule breaking, but throw their arms up in the air at serial child abuse, and say, "nothing to do with us." Whether it's specifically covered by their "rules" or not, I strongly believe they had a moral duty to act.

The NCAA are there do make sure schools stick to the athletic rules and regulations in place and punish those who do not ............THAT IS IT. They are not the law.

PSU did not cover up the crimes the people in powerful position at PSU did. This is about the handful of people who did not report these crimes, which is a criminal offense.

Why have the NCAA not hammered McQueary because he did nothing? Surely if you are going after anyone he needs to be gone after too. They have not gone after those janitors either. Why not? They did nothing either?

Should McQueary be allowed to continue coaching after doing nothing about what he witnessed the showers?
Should the janitors be allowed to continue working in an institution with young people after what they witnessed and did nothing? They all admit doing nothing because they felt they would not be believed and/or lose their jobs. What is the difference between them and Paterno and his bosses? If any of them had acted properly and insisted on police involvement Sandusky may have been stopped sooner. BECAUSE THE NCAA HASN'T THE POWER TO DO IT.

I have no idea why people seem to the think the NCAA are some kind of College football over lords who can just do what they want. They are not.

What happens if apart from Sandusky everyone else eventually is found not guilty of anything in court? What do the NCAA do then? Say sorry?

This is a just a knee jerk reaction to appease the pitchfork masses.

From the LA Times:

"The Michael L. Buckner Law Firm, which represents schools standing before the NCAA infractions committee, issued a Monday statement that read in part, "The NCAA's actions, no matter how noble and justified to address the egregious behavior in the Penn State case, have charted an unprecedented course of action and created a slippery slope . . ."

By applying typical "athletic penalties" to a serious criminal case...

"Emmert's edict allows Penn State sanctions to be unreasonably compared to garden-variety NCAA skulduggery.

People at USC are left to think: "So what Penn State did was only twice as bad as Reggie Bush's parents living rent free in a condo?"

USC is in the midst of NCAA probation that included a two-year bowl ban and loss of 30 scholarships.

Penn State will be banned from bowls for the next four years and lose at least 10 scholarships a year during that stretch.

That burns like 10 hornet stingers, but there is no comparing the two cases. Yet, people can now do it."

 

[Bladders]

If it came to light that a youth team coach for say.....Man UTD did this to a youth team player 20 years ago at UTD's training ground who do you think would deal with it?

The Police or The F.A?

You think the F.A would suddenly hit UTD with a transfer embargo?

You think UEFA would jump in with a 4 year Champions League Ban?

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

A big problem with PSU was their total arrogance – the “We are Penn State” attitude. Even after the Freeh report was issued they failed to take account of public opinion. They could have taken the initiative and done certain things straight away like removing Paterno’s statue – they did nothing.

I have spoken with American college sports fans at work and they are backing the NCAA 100%. I was a bit surprised as I had expected mixed views with some of them being big PSU fans. They have been so disgusted at what they have read and seen on TV that they consider the penalties were just, some were expecting the ‘death penalty’ banning all college football for a year. Their view is that swift action had to be taken against PSU because of the scale of the cover-up and this would not have happened with due process in the courts - they really are not interested in whether the NCAA may have overstepped the line.

 

[Gritt23]

There is no clear comparison to a PLC that is a football club, first second and last, because they have no other business. But as a University, it's the football programme that has been completely out of control, so those who govern College Football must surely be applauded for taking action in this sort of case. i really cannot get my head around teh problem you have with it.

But to play along with your scenario, let's just say that it comes out that a youth team coach of 20 years has been raping boys as young as 10 years old in the showers at Carrington. He's been caught, had it reported to Sir Alex Ferguson, who proceeded to completely brush it under teh carpet, and allow the abuse to continue by turning a blind eye, rather than lose a coach, and face up to his moral obligation ..... then as well as criminal prosecutions, I would hope the FA would try to shut down the Youth Academy at Man Utd. Ban them from all youth competitions under the control of the FA. they wouldn't but that is because soccer is so hopelessly toothless when it comes to taking action against the clubs.

Going back to another of your points, McQueary is a disgraceful individual, and I very much doubt that his "career" will continue unaffected by all this, as you seem to suggest. Forget what he's like as a coach, what sort of person witnesses what he did, and reacts in any way other than to immediately smack Sandusky in the face, tell the lad to run and call the police immediately? McQueary's role in this is disgusting. How do you leave that situation, to simply report it to old man Joe the next day? Shocking behaviour.

 

[Gritt23]

A big problem with PSU was their total arrogance – the “We are Penn State” attitude. Even after the Freeh report was issued they failed to take account of public opinion. They could have taken the initiative and done certain things straight away like removing Paterno’s statue – they did nothing.

I have spoken with American college sports fans at work and they are backing the NCAA 100%. I was a bit surprised as I had expected mixed views with some of them being big PSU fans. They have been so disgusted at what they have read and seen on TV that they consider the penalties were just, some were expecting the ‘death penalty’ banning all college football for a year. Their view is that swift action had to be taken against PSU because of the scale of the cover-up and this would not have happened with due process in the courts - they really are not interested in whether the NCAA may have overstepped the line.

That's very good to hear. Out of interest, what has been their reaction to the Penn State fans who even after the publication of the report werestill defending their man, and even camping outside to try and protect the statue?

 

[Bladders]

A big problem with PSU was their total arrogance – the “We are Penn State” attitude. Even after the Freeh report was issued they failed to take account of public opinion. They could have taken the initiative and done certain things straight away like removing Paterno’s statue – they did nothing.

I have spoken with American college sports fans at work and they are backing the NCAA 100%. I was a bit surprised as I had expected mixed views with some of them being big PSU fans. They have been so disgusted at what they have read and seen on TV that they consider the penalties were just, some were expecting the ‘death penalty’ banning all college football for a year. Their view is that swift action had to be taken against PSU because of the scale of the cover-up and this would not have happened with due process in the courts - they really are not interested in whether the NCAA may have overstepped the line.

The scale of the cover up? It was a handful of people. PSU as an institution didn't do wrong, it was a few senior figures, who covered up the acts of Sandusky. They should be the ones suffering, not the kids and staff now.

Trouble is, the masses want blood over this and they got it even though not a shred of guilt has been proven yet...............trouble is the NCAA have sanctioned the stable long after the horses have bolted.

 

[Bladders]

There is no clear comparison to a PLC that is a football club, first second and last, because they have no other business. But as a University, it's the football programme that has been completely out of control, so those who govern College Football must surely be applauded for taking action in this sort of case. i really cannot get my head around teh problem you have with it.

But to play along with your scenario, let's just say that it comes out that a youth team coach of 20 years has been raping boys as young as 10 years old in the showers at Carrington. He's been caught, had it reported to Sir Alex Ferguson, who proceeded to completely brush it under teh carpet, and allow the abuse to continue by turning a blind eye, rather than lose a coach, and face up to his moral obligation ..... then as well as criminal prosecutions, I would hope the FA would try to shut down the Youth Academy at Man Utd. Ban them from all youth competitions under the control of the FA. they wouldn't but that is because soccer is so hopelessly toothless when it comes to taking action against the clubs.

Going back to another of your points, McQueary is a disgraceful individual, and I very much doubt that his "career" will continue unaffected by all this, as you seem to suggest. Forget what he's like as a coach, what sort of person witnesses what he did, and reacts in any way other than to immediately smack Sandusky in the face, tell the lad to run and call the police immediately? McQueary's role in this is disgusting. How do you leave that situation, to simply report it to old man Joe the next day? Shocking behaviour.

There, you've just said it, they govern College football, the rules to be more specific. I'm struggling to see why you think this is a football rules infraction case? It seems people are still confused as to what the NCAA actually are. Thy're not like Goodell in the NFL, nowhere near. If no one can grasp that then this debate will just end in stale mate.

As for you 'hoping' the F.A might do something, forget it. Never going to happen. They'd steer well clear and rightly so. The Police would deal with those involved and anyone still at said club would be gone and arrested on leaving. Names would be dragged through the mud but UTD as an institution would be clean

This actually happened at Celtic during the late 60's early 70's. Alan Brazil was one of the kids abused and testified in court a few years back. The guy went down, the SFA stayed well clear.

 

[Hotchilidog]

There, you've just said it, they govern College football, the rules to be more specific. I'm struggling to see why you think this is a football rules infraction case? It seems people are still confused as to what the NCAA actually are. Thy're not like Goodell in the NFL, nowhere near. If no one can grasp that then this debate will just end in stale mate.

I cannot see how the NCAA could have sat on their hands over this. These are kids at school we are talking about not professional athletes. It's about time the NCAA were concerned with issues other money. The problem not only lay with individuals at PSU but with the football program's dominant position within the university. The institutionalised culture that protected the program rather than kids is what these sanctions were designed to address. If the NCAA didn't do it then PSU should have done it themselves. I couldn't care less about the legacy of the football program at PSU, it is forever tainted by this scandal, and they have to start anew.

Hopefully some good will finally come of this with the endowment. I'm pretty sure this discussion has come full circle now, so will leave it for now. I respect your opinion but I just do not agree with it.

 

[Gritt23]

There, you've just said it, they govern College football, the rules to be more specific. I'm struggling to see why you think this is a football rules infraction case?

If only life could be so black and white.

Those involved at PSU have acted in the most abhorrant way imaginable. The individuals have been punished in a court of law, and the football programme have been punished, by those who govern College Football. That all seems perfectly logical.

Whether that's by the letter of their juristiction or not, it would seem the right thing to do to me, and the "right thing to do" was long overdue in this matter. Not to you, clearly, but so be it. I applaud the NCAA, for what they've done.