The Jeremy Corbyn thread

[sagaman]

Panorama on Monday night about the goings on in Brighton and Hove Labour party.

While the Labour Party is focused on internal squabbles they are a totally ineffectual opposition

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[Surf's Up]

Corbyn's is just a benign stalking horse for the do-called hard left. He's a mild mannered, rather dull, not very bright or articulate placeman who got into his current position completely by accident. The real power players are people like McDonnell, Lansman and McClusky and they're using Corbyn as the more acceptable front man for their own aspirations.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Corbyn's is just a benign stalking horse for the do-called hard left. He's a mild mannered, rather dull, not very bright or articulate placeman who got into his current position completely by accident. The real power players are people like McDonnell, Lansman and McClusky and they're using Corbyn as the more acceptable front man for their own aspirations.

Exactly, and it's all rather worrying.

McDonnell is a very, very nasty piece of work.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Without looking at anything else, his past support for the IRA

His "support" for the IRA? Really? By advocating a dialogue to stop a blood bath? A dialogue that eventually came to fruition? Re-writing history much.

 

[Gwylan]

Thirty years ago the left of the Labour Party were Militant Tendency. I would suggest that, to paraphrase: these youngsters/new members by not understanding history are doomed to repeat it.

Not at all. Militant Tendency was a very, very small part of the Labour Party. I was a member of Labour in the early/mid 80s - in two different constituencies. There were no Militant members in the first one and a handful in the second. I doubt if 1% of Labour members were Militant supporters (apart from, possibly, Liverpool - but even then, they weren't in the majority)

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Not at all. Militant Tendency was a very, very small part of the Labour Party. I was a member of Labour in the early/mid 80s - in two different constituencies. There were no Militant members in the first one and a handful in the second. I doubt if 1% of Labour members were Militant supporters (apart from, possibly, Liverpool - but even then, they weren't in the majority)

Hmm, certainly didn't seem like it at the time. Seems odd that the party pulled itself apart over 1 % of its members ? Might have been easier to have ignored them if that were the case.

 

[Audax]

Diving in late to the party here, and only really read the last 2-3 pages. But anyway: I'm more and more feeling that the fastest way back to a credible Labour Party in opposition is for someone to convince Watson to step up. From what I've seen, he's been the one MP to actively work towards the good of the party as a whole rather than simply the interests of a portion (left, centre-left, Blairite or whatever labels you want to apply) of the party. Smith looks from the outside like a better option than Corbyn, but I don't think he'll be able to rally anywhere near enough support to beat Corbyn. Watson, I think, could and I suspect it's Watson's work behind the scenes that is behind the recent emergence of Labour rebels saying they'll support Corbyn (for the good of the party...) if he wins.

As far as the Lib Dems benefitting at a future GE due to the Labour in-fighting, unfortunately I think their near-destruction at the last GE puts them too far behind with too much work to do to get into position to be a credible alternative. Farron looks like he has potential to be a better leader for them than Clegg was, but he's only just starting out on what is going to be a very steep climb back. My hope is that with Brexit delivered that Ukip will now recede as a party of choice, but that leaves big question marks over where their "protest" voters will go. Back to the parties they fled from (which would, I think, help the Lib Dems)? Or a simple switch to Tory (which makes the necessity of a Labour revival under a strong leadership team that much more urgent)?

 

[Gwylan]

Hmm, certainly didn't seem like it at the time. Seems odd that the party pulled itself apart over 1 % of its members ? Might have been easier to have ignored them if that were the case.

Well, quite a few people in the Labour Party said exactly that. The argument was that Labour was a "broad church" where moderate social democrats could sit happily with Trots.But just because people argued that Militant shouldn't be expelled, didn't mean they were Militant supporters. And Militant-sponsored motions were passed at conference by members who weren't Militant members.

But when Kinnock purged Militant from the party, he expelled between 220 and 250 members of Militant - that's scarcely a mass party.

Not all members of Labour left were Militant. Tony Benn, for example, was clearly on the left of the Labour Party but was no Militant supporter (and he was widely disliked by Militant). The Bennites in the party were far, far more numerous than Militant supporters but the right-wing press generally mixed them up so they were seen as one and the same - which couldn't be further from the truth

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

As Alan Hansen might have said "You don't win nothing with Corbyn". MP since 1983 without ever registering on the political radar. Sooner The Labour Party split into the Mickey Mouse Momentum Party led by JC, and whatever the Green/Labour-Alliance-led-by-Caroline-Lucas wants to call itself, the sooner we'll have a credible opposition party. IMHO, like.

 

[Goldstone1976]

My hope is that with Brexit delivered that Ukip will now recede as a party of choice, but that leaves big question marks over where their "protest" voters will go. Back to the parties they fled from (which would, I think, help the Lib Dems)?

I'd be astonished if the largest mainstream party that lost votes to UKIP were the LDs. I'd have thought that both of the other parties would have lost far more voters to UKIP than the LDs - LD voters are surely more Europhile by nature than any other mainstream party (apart, perhaps, Green - if you can call green "mainstream").

EDIT: I note that 4% of UKIP voters voted to remain in the EU. Huh?!

 

[Audax]

I'd be astonished if the largest mainstream party that lost votes to UKIP were the LDs. I'd have thought that both of the other parties would have lost far more voters to UKIP than the LDs - LD voters are surely more Europhile by nature than any other mainstream party (apart, perhaps, Green - if you can call green "mainstream").

EDIT: I note that 4% of UKIP voters voted to remain in the EU. Huh?!

You're probably right, but I can't help thinking that the size of the the LD vote hemorrhage that a good chunk of them may have felt that a "safe" place to put a protest vote was with Ukip rather than one of the majors. Maybe I'm ascribing too much thought process to the average LD voter, but my thinking was that a Ukip candidate would be considered unlikely to unseat an LD candidate whereas switching to a Tory or Labour would (as it turns out, the desertion was so profound they lost a swathe anyway). I doubt many of them will have gone to the Tories (given they were fleeing due to the outcomes from the Coalition government, redirecting their vote to the Tories makes it a hollow gesture), and clearly not enough of them went Labour despite that probably being the natural fit. In Scotland I think they clearly went SNP, which is a journey to the right. So if you're going to drop the LD and go right, but also want to punish the Tories for their part in the Coalition, where do you end up? Ukip.

That 4% of Ukip voters voting remain I think is at least partially indicative of the Ukip GE result having been swelled by a definite protest vote element, rather than being genuine Ukip supporters.

But then, this past UK GE was the first time I actually participated in a UK election. As an dual-national Aussie expat, for a long time I paid no attention as I simply didn't understand the UK political landscape. Maybe I still don't, or I'm just placing too much of my own way of thinking onto the average voter. I personally would never vote for a far-right party (which is why, despite historically voting for right-leaning Liberals in Australia, I did not vote Tory over here ... and make no bones of it, the Tories are way too far right at the moment because instead of trying to woo the voters to stay centre-right they instead followed the voters further right), but I can envision the thinking process that might tempt some LD voters to make that step. I'll probably vote LD next time out (knowing full well it's a wasted vote in Wealden).

 

[Gwylan]

I'd have thought that both of the other parties would have lost far more voters to UKIP than the LDs - LD voters are surely more Europhile by nature than any other mainstream party

There was a councillor in Worthing or Shoreham (forget which) who defected from the LDs to UKIP. How does someone manage to do that?

 

[glasfryn]

There was a councillor in Worthing or Shoreham (forget which) who defected from the LDs to UKIP. How does someone manage to do that?

they feel obliged to vote/support someone ........................its in their nature

 

[Hampster Gull]

As Alan Hansen might have said "You don't win nothing with Corbyn". MP since 1983 without ever registering on the political radar. Sooner The Labour Party split into the Mickey Mouse Momentum Party led by JC.

You're right of course. this isn't about winning for Momentum, its about a takeover of the party, about ideology above the desire to win an election and make social progress. They are creating a fringe party out of a once proud party. I see many of the pro JC supporters have long ago gone quiet

 

[beorhthelm]

... I doubt many of them will have gone to the Tories (given they were fleeing due to the outcomes from the Coalition government, redirecting their vote to the Tories makes it a hollow gesture),

looking at two local seats of Eastbourne and Lewes will show you how the voters float between Liberals and Tory. same applies to most the southern seats Liberals lost, they were Tory seats before the 90's. the sort of tactical voter who might swing to the Liberals isnt going anywhere near UKIP. another misreading is how far right the Tories have gone, with the backbenchers seeing off changes to working tax credit and ending austerity in all but name a year ago, there isnt much evidence for a lurch right, just a lack of an opposition as Labour fight amonsgt themselves.

 

[jakarta]

Last Lap coming up as Labour heads back to 1979..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37422696

"When we're campaigning we're reaching out to people to say: "Austerity - doesn't have to be, student fees don't have to be, homelessness doesn't have to be, inequality doesn't have to be, discrimination doesn't have to be'.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Labour could be finished this weekend. Time for him to go, and go now.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

Big fan of Corbyn, hoping he wins against Smith.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I watched last weeks Channel 4 Dispatches on Momentum last night. Don't know if it's been discussed earlier in the thread but none of it came as a surprise. For Momentum read Millitant. It is quite clearly an infiltration of the party. Can't even be denied given it came straight out of their mouths.

 

[Seagull58]

As Alan Hansen might have said "You don't win nothing with Corbyn". MP since 1983 without ever registering on the political radar. Sooner The Labour Party split into the Mickey Mouse Momentum Party led by JC, and whatever the Green/Labour-Alliance-led-by-Caroline-Lucas wants to call itself, the sooner we'll have a credible opposition party. IMHO, like.

Why don't the Mickey Mouse Momentum supporters just stay in the SWP?