[Albion] The injustice against Liverpool

[dazzer6666]

The way I see it is there's three major issues here:
1. English football has made some strange decisions about implementing VAR- IE not using semi automated offsides.
2. There's too much inconsistency from VAR and referees.
3. There's too much scrutiny during a game and afterwards. Not just the big decisions- every little action seems to be broken down and analysed, as if we are all desperate to find the smallest injustice or mistake.

VAR should be used for:
Goal line technology and the ball going out of play.
Offsides using the semi automated system.
Violent conduct and off the ball indiscretions.

And that's it.

Let's take this nonsense with handballs in the box. It's rubbish. It's totally subjective and it's totally inconsistent.
It should simply be the case that if the referee and lino miss it, so be it. Refs can still be scrutinised after the game- if it's a howler demote them. Put more responsibility back on the referees to actually ref the game rather than relying on VAR. Using this example- I'm sorry but it just isn't as important as whether an effort on goal actually goes over the line. You can slow down a replay as much as you want, use as many angles, change the rules - unnatural body position, ball to hand, meh - but the reality is that in real time it's often impossible to know. So just let these things go. It's obvious when it's an actual handball- where someone lifts their arm to clear a corner or uses their hands to 'save' a goal bound shot.

VAR has become like some dystopian vision of an AI computer that ends up destroying itself. It's cannibalising itself and ruining the game.

Pretty much agree - although VAR and goal line tech are different things anyway - the system directly tells the onfield ref if the ball crosses the line.
If VAR is looking at something (as you say things like violent conduct etc - would probably still include penalties but they need to have clearer protocols and consistency), the onfield ref should also be at the monitor at the time so they can have a proper discussion whilst watching replays

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Before … we had errors.
Now … we have very long delays, then sheer incompetence or judgement calls on pens most disagree with.

VAR can work [internationals and CL officials]. The decisive factor here must be the lack of ability and skill under pressure, VAR has inadvertently found them out.

I'd disagree with the bottom part, it's not very good in CL/Internationals either, still a fair amount of long waits and errors

Top part spot on

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You’re right Harry.
And they’re still not saying it.

But what has actually changed for the better?

Marginal decisions are still marginal decisions

It would be really interesting to see how many really clear and obvious errors have been overturned against all these marginal toenails offside and stupid handballs that aren’t handballs and red cards that are never red cards.

My guess would be that the glaring errors that VAR was introduced to eliminate are very few and far between.
The rest are all grey and provide controversy.

And that brief and thrilling moment of excitement for the supporter who is watching live at the ground has been lost forever

Mess

I don't have the data but I am confident that VAR has overturned countless errors, some glaring, others less so. The discussion we have been having on this thread started about the recent egregious VAR errors. In my view they are inexcusable and it baffles me how they have happened. I can only assume the VAR team have rushed things. This needs to be fixed.

So, yes, the effect of any delay has destroyed all enjoyment for some people. I am sorry about that. But it isn't impossible to reprogram yourself. I never used to celebrate a goal until it was unequivocally given (this includes nailed on goals and I still celebrate these immediately even with VAR). I have been bitterly upset, having celebrated a goal only to see it chalked off, long before VAR. I have been able to get over it. And when there is a VAR check and our goal is given I celebrate as if it has just been scored. I'm a bit surprised that some people have so much difficulty with all this, frankly.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I understand what you're saying but who ever got back from a game and said "great game, the referee was tremendously accurate he spotted all the slight obstructions, a handball than no one appealed for and that deflected off the players foot and disallowed two goals for millimetre offsides "

That comment is not the antithesis of mine. That comment is the antithesis of:

"crap game, the referee was not tremendously accurate he failed to spot all the slight obstructions, a handball than no one appealed for and that deflected off the players foot and did not disallow two goals for millimetre offside"

And once again that is something that nobody said. Ever.

VAR is not about getting every tiny decision correct. It is about minimizing the risk of travesties.

I think this may be the right point to refer again to another concern of mine from the past, that referees are allowing subconscious bias to undermine VAR. None of them want to relinquish their special role as the Final Arbiter of decisions, and this includes the referees in the VAR room. So, these wankers at the weekend may be barred from the VAR room for a bit but their activities as on-field referees however are unlikely to be curtailed. And in the long run the referees will all be happier without VAR shining a light on their human frailty.

Perhaps it is time to have specially trained referees who only work as VAR operatives. There would then be no conflict of interest with their having a foot in the on-field ref's camp via the referees union.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The way I see it is there's three major issues here:
1. English football has made some strange decisions about implementing VAR- IE not using semi automated offsides.
2. There's too much inconsistency from VAR and referees.
3. There's too much scrutiny during a game and afterwards. Not just the big decisions- every little action seems to be broken down and analysed, as if we are all desperate to find the smallest injustice or mistake.

VAR should be used for:
Goal line technology and the ball going out of play.
Offsides using the semi automated system.
Violent conduct and off the ball indiscretions.

And that's it.

Let's take this nonsense with handballs in the box. It's rubbish. It's totally subjective and it's totally inconsistent.
It should simply be the case that if the referee and lino miss it, so be it. Refs can still be scrutinised after the game- if it's a howler demote them. Put more responsibility back on the referees to actually ref the game rather than relying on VAR. Using this example- I'm sorry but it just isn't as important as whether an effort on goal actually goes over the line. You can slow down a replay as much as you want, use as many angles, change the rules - unnatural body position, ball to hand, meh - but the reality is that in real time it's often impossible to know. So just let these things go. It's obvious when it's an actual handball- where someone lifts their arm to clear a corner or uses their hands to 'save' a goal bound shot.

VAR has become like some dystopian vision of an AI computer that ends up destroying itself. It's cannibalising itself and ruining the game.

I agree with most of your post. But try selling that hand ball argument to the Welsh fans who watch Thierry Henri punch out their qualification lights a few years ago. VAR would have rightly ruled that goal out.

And I like VAR being used for penalties. There was a shit handball rubric (process/rules) which has been changed. Technology revealed that rules were unclear. The rules therefore get tweaked. This has always been how football has worked, from the days before offside till today. Systematic problems are usually due to ambiguity in the rules. The words need to map to a decision making process. Things are improving and further improvements will happen.

 

[willalbion]

I take no pleasure in it at all. VAR should go until the people using it are vaguely competent. At the moment it’s ruining the fan experience, yet there are still patently incorrect decisions.

And, yes, I know VAR gave us two pens, correctly, against AEK but take the safety blanket away and the on field refs have to start concentrating again.

Should have dedicated VAR officials who’s only job is VAR. also AI offsides.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Should have dedicated VAR officials who’s only job is VAR. also AI offsides.

Are you not then having different rules for VAR and on field?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

VAR just seems to have made things worse. Maybe it's scope could be reined in to just cover simple stuff like was-the-ball-over-the-line? Seems to work pretty well in other sports

 

[London Irish]

We are never going back to not using the technology, doesn't matter how many media talking heads make self-important pronouncements on the matter. Match of the Day pundits are the worst for that

 

[Seagull58]

Over the last 13 months Darren England has gained notoriety, his name on repeat involved in shite one way or another.

Are these jobs for life, no matter the incompetence?

Darren England and Stuart Attwell are either not vaguely competent or are corrupt. Taylor is not much better and he is supposedly one of the best.

 

[PeterT]

VAR just seems to have made things worse. Maybe it's scope could be reined in to just cover simple stuff like was-the-ball-over-the-line? Seems to work pretty well in other sports

I always thought that about VAR. Use it for the factual stuff only such as was the ball over the line. You could add others in to that arguably, such as offside, but the more it’s factual only the better it will work in my opinion.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Are you not then having different rules for VAR and on field?

No it is simply about different skill sets. One has the skill to be on the pitch and maker judgements on what they think they see in real time. The other has the skill set to look at replays and frozen moments quickly and with purpose (or would have if trained properly).

 

[Seagull58]

I understand what you're saying but who ever got back from a game and said "great game, the referee was tremendously accurate he spotted all the slight obstructions, a handball than no one appealed for and that deflected off the players foot and disallowed two goals for millimetre offsides "

Well, despite the fact that we lost, the Spanish VAR officials did a superb job in the AEK match, ensuring we got the 2 obvious penalties that the useless Estonian ref missed. I suspect Attwell would not have given either of them.

 

[pb21]

When will they release the audio? Will be fascinating to hear how exactly they fecked up.

 

[The Fits]

I agree with most of your post. But try selling that hand ball argument to the Welsh fans who watch Thierry Henri punch out their qualification lights a few years ago. VAR would have rightly ruled that goal out.

And I like VAR being used for penalties. There was a shit handball rubric (process/rules) which has been changed. Technology revealed that rules were unclear. The rules therefore get tweaked. This has always been how football has worked, from the days before offside till today. Systematic problems are usually due to ambiguity in the rules. The words need to map to a decision making process. Things are improving and further improvements will happen.

Yeah the Henry example is a very good one. So clear. Such an important moment.
But how often did that kind of thing happen? Obviously there's Maradona too. Again, huge. But those were occasional, extremely unfortunate quirks of relying mostly on three on field folk to make the correct decisions Vs what is now a game by game circus.
I wonder if you asked every football supporter right now 'would you swap one controversial goal against your club/country vs the current mess' how many would choose the former.
Mistakes felt like an occasional part of the game, they're begining to feel like the actual game.

 

[Bozza]

When will they release the audio? Will be fascinating to hear how exactly they fecked up.

That's the telling thing, isn't it?

As much as it's difficult to understand how the VAR chaps thought a goal had initially been awarded, it's impossible to understand how they didn't notice the lack of goal celebration and that the game re-started with a free-kick in the Spurs half. What were they looking at?

 

[pb21]

That's the telling thing, isn't it?

As much as it's difficult to understand how the VAR chaps thought a goal had initially been awarded, it's impossible to understand how they didn't notice the lack of goal celebration and that the game re-started with a free-kick in the Spurs half. What were they looking at?

Absolutely.

They have released this before, a few weeks ago there was something on Sky with Michael Owen and Howard Webb, reviewing VAR calls, including a couple of VAR mistakes. Was quite interesting actually.

What I recall from that was the almost constant liaison between the on field ref and the VAR; hopefully we get to hear the same from this...

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yeah the Henry example is a very good one. So clear. Such an important moment.
But how often did that kind of thing happen? Obviously there's Maradona too. Again, huge. But those were occasional, extremely unfortunate quirks of relying mostly on three on field folk to make the correct decisions Vs what is now a game by game circus.
I wonder if you asked every football supporter right now 'would you swap one controversial goal against your club/country vs the current mess' how many would choose the former.
Mistakes felt like an occasional part of the game, they're begining to feel like the actual game.

I feel your pain, but I don't buy into it. And I certainly don't subscribe to referenda. And of course if you could guarantee no more mess (which to me means no more incorrect decisions, ever) then I would gladly sacrifice a goal. Not even a controversial one. For example, our fourth against Wolves. Take it, take it now!

Your comments about the big decisions, Henri bang to rights etc., did make me smile, though. I was half expecting you to add 'but what have the Romans ever done for us?'.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That's the telling thing, isn't it?

As much as it's difficult to understand how the VAR chaps thought a goal had initially been awarded, it's impossible to understand how they didn't notice the lack of goal celebration and that the game re-started with a free-kick in the Spurs half. What were they looking at?

I suspect they may have been busy playing 'pipe-to-pipe bushmen' at the time.

 

[The Fits]

That's the telling thing, isn't it?

As much as it's difficult to understand how the VAR chaps thought a goal had initially been awarded, it's impossible to understand how they didn't notice the lack of goal celebration and that the game re-started with a free-kick in the Spurs half. What were they looking at?

It feels absolutely essential that the audio is released.
We know they're all mic'ed up. What on earth happened there? Where they even in the room? Had one of them gone to the toilet? Was Comms down?
There has to be an explanation...