[Albion] The injustice against Liverpool

[METALMICKY]

It feels absolutely essential that the audio is released.
We know they're all mic'ed up. What on earth happened there? Where they even in the room? Had one of them gone to the toilet? Was Comms down?
There has to be an explanation...

Watching the Ryder Cup or Porn Hub?

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Even the goal they were given was done so after a half hour VAR debate about it being offside when the ball was played backwards.

 

[Deleted member 37369]

How on earth did you manage to get away with posting this without a sanctimonious response from Neville's Breakfast?

You've ignored my reply to you on the other thread where I pointed this one out!!

I repeat, this clearly references the 'always the victim' trope!! You obviously think it's funny with your laughing emoji!!!

How on earth are you a Mod? I'm not the only one on here that asks themselves that question.

@Bozza ??

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

But.....I love my football. I am in favour of VAR. I don't need instant gratification. I am relaxed about errors.

What I don't like is systematic avoidable system-dependent travesties. I'm not sure this is an accurate description of VAR (any more than the big club bias and the 'fact' that the referee and VAR will ensure things are 'fixed' for Liverpool at the weekend), but it is obvious VAR isn't working as well as it should.

In light of all that and everything, proposing that VAR be binned would simply be a sop to those who watch football as a mindless thrill, and are unconcerned about the result.

"We lost 1-0 to a falsely awarded penalty after having two goals of our own falsely disallowed, owing to errors by the ref and linos, as we all saw later on MOTD, but I wouldn't change any of it for the world because it was soooooo exciting"

Said nobody. Ever.

Can I press you on this?

Surely instant gratification and mindless thrill are integral to football culture? It's not like cricket where the act of scoring gets a polite ripple of applause, or basketball where the act of scoring happens dozens of times a game and gets the sort of level of hooray that might occur if your mate tripped on a kerb.

Goals are much more valuable in football, this is what I believe has elevated it above all other sports.

Think about the biggest moments of hedonistic bedlam you've been involved with in football. Reinelt, McShane, Storer, Cullip, Andone. Those will be some of the greatest moments of the lives of many of the people on here.

Now if with those goals, your celebration was diffused over the couple of minutes it takes for net to ripple to game to be restarted, rather than the instant, incomparable moment of joy which those who attended actually experienced, wouldn’t your football supporting experience have been so much the poorer?

 

[Deleted member 37369]

Even the goal they were given was done so after a half hour VAR debate about it being offside when the ball was played backwards.

I'm sure I saw something on this elsewhere. I used to think the same ... but I've found this ...

"So, can you be offside from a backwards pass? Yes, you can be offside from a backwards pass. If the receiving player is in an offside position when the pass is played, the direction of the pass is irrelevant".

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Lino & VAR make a mistake. We know it happens too often to us, who gives a shit except us, no one. Liverpool what way more then an apology. Resolution! What is that? Do they want the match replayed? Do they what the goal added so it's a draw? Apart form an apology what do they want? Yes it's about time basic mistakes like this are stopped. They can't argue they don't want to delay the match for too long but they took long enough to check our goal on Saturday & didn't care about that.

What they want, is for every single decision to go their way the following week. And they will get it

 

[Mellotron]

Thought someone (think it was Vish) on the Football Ramble this morning had a pretty good suggestion - that the VAR check is basically scripted, much like a review for a wicket in cricket. And for those who say it'll slow the game down too much, it already is taking about the same amount of time as a cricket review, so let's just improve what "it" is, perhaps?

Obviously the script would have to be slightly different for each "type" of decision (ie red card, or offside, etc) but it would bring a structure to what seems to be a chaotic situation, and having a checklist should stop an absolute howler like Saturday's.

i.e.

"Was the goal ruled for offside on pitch?" - YES/NO
"Is anyone interfering with play who is offside?" - YES/NO
"Can we have a look at the lines please?" - VAR does the lines and tells the ref what they are seeing
Etc
Decision only once everything has been checked and cleared between Ref & VAR, with VAR assistant also on hand just in case.

Clear, consistent, everyone in the loop so the people in the stadium don't feel like mugs, being the only ones who don't know what's going on.

This would also mean it could be miked up and the audio played live to the stadium much like in Cricket, as it would always follow the same routine - this would give everyone much more of a feeling of control and process, right now it feels so informal, so make-it-up-as-they-go-along. Also takes pressure off the refs in terms of saying the right thing, as they will simply be following a script which everyone will become familiar with over time.

Also, if there is a HUGE error and it is spotted soon after - as they would've done with the Diaz offside when they saw that it wasn't a kick off from the centre but a free kick being taken - there should definitely be a window of say 20 seconds(?) allowed where something like that can be overruled and rectified.

It's the carrying on when absolutely everyone knows (including the refs and VAR) that the wrong thing has happened, that looks so amateurish and nonsensical.

 

[Guinness Boy]

You've ignored my reply to you on the other thread where I pointed this one out!!

I repeat, this clearly references the 'always the victim' trope!! You obviously think it's funny with your laughing emoji!!!

How on earth are you a Mod? I'm not the only one on here that asks themselves that question.

@Bozza ??

I'll be honest, once you started with the 'my dad's from Liverpool so it's ok to have two teams' stuff I lost interest and stopped reading your replies.

 

[Deleted member 37369]

I'll be honest, once you started with the 'my dad's from Liverpool so it's ok to have two teams' stuff I lost interest and stopped reading your replies.

And there we have it ...

 

[um bongo molongo]

when was the last time you truly celebrated a goal without at least a nagging doubt in your mind that it might be chalked off seconds/minutes later?

I was looking forward to doing this in Carabao last week…

 

[JBizzle]

I think what really need is VAR for the VAR

 

[Berty23]

Rather than simply saying check over they should say a full sentence.

“Check over. Not offside. The goal stands”

That would have prevented any confusion as the ref would have said “we gave offside”

 

[Bodian]

I agree with most of your post. But try selling that hand ball argument to the Welsh fans who watch Thierry Henri punch out their qualification lights a few years ago. VAR would have rightly ruled that goal out.

Not so sure - Antony Gordon handballed it to keep it in before crossing for Newcastle to score against Sheffield a few weeks ago. Goal stood.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

What they want, is for every single decision to go their way the following week. And they will get it

The Albion should fire a very public warning shot over the VAR bows right now, to try and minimise the chances of that happening on Sunday

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Thought someone (think it was Vish) on the Football Ramble this morning had a pretty good suggestion - that the VAR check is basically scripted, much like a review for a wicket in cricket. And for those who say it'll slow the game down too much, it already is taking about the same amount of time as a cricket review, so let's just improve what "it" is, perhaps?

Obviously the script would have to be slightly different for each "type" of decision (ie red card, or offside, etc) but it would bring a structure to what seems to be a chaotic situation, and having a checklist should stop an absolute howler like Saturday's.

i.e.

"Was the goal ruled for offside on pitch?" - YES/NO
"Is anyone interfering with play who is offside?" - YES/NO
"Can we have a look at the lines please?" - VAR does the lines and tells the ref what they are seeing
Etc
Decision only once everything has been checked and cleared between Ref & VAR, with VAR assistant also on hand just in case.

Clear, consistent, everyone in the loop so the people in the stadium don't feel like mugs, being the only ones who don't know what's going on.

This would also mean it could be miked up and the audio played live to the stadium much like in Cricket, as it would always follow the same routine - this would give everyone much more of a feeling of control and process, right now it feels so informal, so make-it-up-as-they-go-along. Also takes pressure off the refs in terms of saying the right thing, as they will simply be following a script which everyone will become familiar with over time.

Also, if there is a HUGE error and it is spotted soon after - as they would've done with the Diaz offside when they saw that it wasn't a kick off from the centre but a free kick being taken - there should definitely be a window of say 20 seconds(?) allowed where something like that can be overruled and rectified.

It's the carrying on when absolutely everyone knows (including the refs and VAR) that the wrong thing has happened, that looks so amateurish and nonsensical.

Yes, but what can the fans in the stadium do when they see the explanation is that VAR drew the line to the wrong defender? Palace last season?

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Absolutely.

They have released this before, a few weeks ago there was something on Sky with Michael Owen and Howard Webb, reviewing VAR calls, including a couple of VAR mistakes. Was quite interesting actually.

What I recall from that was the almost constant liaison between the on field ref and the VAR; hopefully we get to hear the same from this...

What I noticed about that audio was how panicked they all sounded. At cricket, it's all very calm. Has the bowlers leg gone over the line? Does the ball pitch inline? Has it hit the pad or bat? Is it hitting the stumps?

Here the audio is things like "It's clumsy" in panicked voices. It's all subjective. They should be applying a specific law and testing against it. In this case, was it a clear foul? Yes therefore it is a penalty. Where the ball went afterwards etc was irrelevant. It's a foul. It's a penalty.

They need a process not "Right lads what do you think about this one? Equally, the ref needs to keep quiet until it's done. Asking Are we there yet? Never helped anyone.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

All VAR is is another layer of fallible decision-making imposed over the top of the existing fallible decision-making. The belief that just because the VAR officials have computers and stuff that they could and should get everything right is quite naive.

It maybe naive to think they should get everything right but it’s reasonable to assume they should get most things right — which they do. What is naive is the assumption that pre-VAR, things were better. Every Monday was filled with moaning about blatant offsides being missed and goals that should have been disallowed.

VAR isn’t going away so we have to ensure it’s done better. Simple incompetence, as with Liverpool on Saturday and us last season, can be reduced through better training, technology and procedures. A bigger issue for me is the inconsistent application of the laws of the game. We saw the Dunk handball penalty and the Luton handball penalty last week given, yet I can think of at least 4 handball incidents in the past 2 or 3 weeks that seemed far more obvious but not given. And the over-the-top tackles that get straight reds. Sometimes given, sometimes not. Offsides, again, with 'interfering with play' interpreted differently from one game to the next. These laws and their application need to be really nailed down, published and discussed, with clear examples of what’s included and what isn’t. There may still be inconsistencies but there’ll be fewer. I also think VAR could include a judgement of "inconclusive" rather than a straight yes or no, as it’s supposed to rule only on clear errors rather than aim for perfection.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

The Albion should fire a very public warning shot over the VAR bows right now, to try and minimise the chances of that happening on Sunday

We see ourselves as above mind games / criticism / implied criticism / admitting the possible fallibility of refs or VAR

Which is one of the main reasons we'll continue to be on the receiving end of no less egregious but much less high profile "mistakes"

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

What I noticed about that audio was how panicked they all sounded. At cricket, it's all very calm. Has the bowlers leg gone over the line? Does the ball pitch inline? Has it hit the pad or bat? Is it hitting the stumps?

Here the audio is things like "It's clumsy" in panicked voices. It's all subjective. They should be applying a specific law and testing against it. In this case, was it a clear foul? Yes therefore it is a penalty. Where the ball went afterwards etc was irrelevant. It's a foul. It's a penalty.

They need a process not "Right lads what do you think about this one? Equally, the ref needs to keep quiet until it's done. Asking Are we there yet? Never helped anyone.

And the conversations in the rugby are fascinating. It's like the ref is going down an imaginary flow chart which he has memorised

 

[Mellotron]

Yes, but what can the fans in the stadium do when they see the explanation is that VAR drew the line to the wrong defender? Palace last season?

Again, the checklist/script and the live audio should help with this.

If none of the referee, the VAR & the VAR assistant can see to rectify even after all that, then we are truly doomed.