[Politics] The General Election Thread

[BenGarfield]

No of course not. Times change.

By hard lefter I mean someone who has never been as happy as she/he is now, because Corbyn is labour leader. The sort of person who thinks of Blair as a traitor. The sort of person who is convinced labour will win today. The sort of person who will blame the electorate and the manipulative tory media if Corbyn loses. The sort of person who will hope Corbyn carries on as labour leader even if he loses because it is inevitable the people will eventually come to their senses and vote him in. The sort of person who, actually, does not regard winning the general election as the most important issue today (the education of the masses being the most important issue). The sort of person who favours the deselection of labour candidates who do not back momentum.

And of course it won't be hard left to renationalise the NHS if it is sold off. It won't even be hard left to renationalise the railways. It will, however, be tricky because it would be illegal to renationalise the railways without paying the going rate. The government can't simply appropriate goods on a whim, like the Chinese do. For that reason renationalisation of the railways might be impossible. There is a world of difference between bailing out an industry on the brink of bankruptcy (old school nationalisation) and forcibly appropriating a going concern.

Also, if the NHS is sold off, and labour don't get back in for 5, or 10, or 15 years, it may then be impossible to renationalise it for the same reasons of cost. It would be possible as appropriation only if the NHS had been asset stripped in contravention of the laws surrounding provision of health care (albeit Boris could change the laws - and he might).

For renationalisation (as opposed to nationalisation to bail out a failing concern) the stable door is a good analogy here. Even Corbyn understands the stable door - this is why labour are not proposing to forcibly renationalise ex-council houses, even though it is equally as defensible as renationalising the railways, or the NHS, from the perspective of (hard left) doctrine.

And please don't throw MacMillan at me. The times change. The post war concensus meant that even the tories were largely content that huge swathes of UK industry and service was state owned in the 50s and 60s. It was Thatcher who changed all that (driven by doctrine - unconcerned whether the national assets flogged off at cut price were a success or went down the shitter like the coal industry, and unconcerned whether the effect was creation of market competition, or a private monopoly with a licence to print money, like BT and British gas were for a long while, and permitted to proceed by the electorate owing to the opportunity to make easy cash, Sid).

Times change. The hard left are stuck in the past. A past that no longer exists (because it is the past).

Thanks for that (genuinly) at least you try and address the issue unlike some on this board who just rebuff with smears and insults. I reject your idea of opposing the failed neo-liberal establishment as being stuck in the past. I think rather the zeigeist points in the opposite direction. The underpinning of Keynsian consensus has a lot to offer us now allied with Modern Monetary Theory, a green new deal to tackle such issues as global warming. Are the Greens, here and in Europe, and the young justice democrats in the USA such as AOC, and lIhan Omar in the USA also stuck in the past?

 

[Bodian]

Large turnout being reported in lots of places, good thing or a bad thing?

Always a good thing.

Depends on the age demographic I guess...

I agree with Blue Valkyrie. Always a good thing, whatever your politics or the outcome you wish to see. I would like voting to be compulsory as it is in Australia.

 

[darkwolf666]

Thanks for that (genuinly) at least you try and address the issue unlike some on this board who just rebuff with smears and insults. I reject your idea of opposing the failed neo-liberal establishment as being stuck in the past. I think rather the zeigeist points in the opposite direction. The underpinning of Keynsian consensus has a lot to offer us now allied with Modern Monetary Theory, a green new deal to tackle such issues as global warming. Are the Greens, here and in Europe, and the young justice democrats in the USA such as AOC, and lIhan Omar in the USA also stuck in the past?

And there you go. You clearly appear to know what you're talking about and certainly name drop enough to make it seem so.

However... The average man in the street doesn't do that in depth analysis of politics. They pick or not pick a team based on the individual, rather than what their policies are...

That nice chap Boris is going to get us out of the nasty EU - tick

That horrible Mr Corbyn, sides with the IRA and Hammas and can't even do his top button up at the Cenotaph - boo

Might sound mighty simplistic, but I guarantee more people, in the street, think this way, rather than your intellectual stance...

Nice read though

 

[Ernest]

Just been to vote again for Sir Peter Kyle , vote Labour, vote as many times you can. When I came out of the polling station I was asked to do the survey for the exit poll that comes out at 10pm. They must be asking all the INTELLIGANT people they see coming out

 

[darkwolf666]

Just been to vote again for Sir Peter Kyle , vote Labour, vote as many times you can. When I came out of the polling station I was asked to do the survey for the exit poll that comes out at 10pm. They must be asking all the INTELLIGANT people they see coming out

Did they ask you if you knew any?

 

[Insel affe]

They must be asking all the INTELLIGANT people they see coming out

That will be later when the "intelligent"people are voting after work.....

 

[Bodian]

Just been to vote again for Sir Peter Kyle , vote Labour, vote as many times you can. When I came out of the polling station I was asked to do the survey for the exit poll that comes out at 10pm. They must be asking all the INTELLIGANT people they see coming out

Second or Third time today??

 

[Bozza]

Just been to vote again for Sir Peter Kyle , vote Labour, vote as many times you can. When I came out of the polling station I was asked to do the survey for the exit poll that comes out at 10pm. They must be asking all the INTELLIGANT people they see coming out

A candidate you can't stand, and a leader you believe has cost lives.

I feel for you today.

Hug?

 

[darkwolf666]

That will be later when the "intelligent"people are voting after work.....

Surely intelligent people won't be at work!!!

Work is for, well, the working classes dahling!

 

[Bob!]

Large turnout being reported in lots of places, good thing or a bad thing?

A winter election probably changes the time of day that a lot of people will be voting, and the weather is forecast to get worse during the day also.

 

[Bob!]

Just been to vote again for Sir Peter Kyle , vote Labour, vote as many times you can. When I came out of the polling station I was asked to do the survey for the exit poll that comes out at 10pm. They must be asking all the INTELLIGANT people they see coming out

Hopefully you gave them the wrong answer to skew the poll.

 

[A1X]

Just one year I'd like to see everyone when asked for the Exit Poll claim they've voted for the Militant Elvis party or one of those joke ones, just to see the looks on the faces of everyone at BBC / Sky / ITV at 10pm

 

[Two Professors]

What the **** are you on about. 4.4% of the UK population is Muslim and not all of those are eligible to vote.

I presume from your aggressive attitude you are a momentum drone.Perhaps if you looked at the general population statistics for Labour-held marginals with a large Moslem population,you might desist from foaming at the mouth.If you believe the 4.4% figure,then I hope you leave Santa some tofu and soy milk.Merry Christmas

 

[Insel affe]

Surely intelligent people won't be at work!!!

Work is for, well, the working classes dahling!

Said Mr darkwolf666.....

 

[Two Professors]

Really? Pray, enlighten us. I worked at the CPS until I retired.

Well good for you.If Starmer ever gets appointed,I'm sure the quality press will have a field day.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

No of course not. Times change.

By hard lefter I mean someone who has never been as happy as she/he is now, because Corbyn is labour leader. The sort of person who thinks of Blair as a traitor. The sort of person who is convinced labour will win today. The sort of person who will blame the electorate and the manipulative tory media if Corbyn loses. The sort of person who will hope Corbyn carries on as labour leader even if he loses because it is inevitable the people will eventually come to their senses and vote him in. The sort of person who, actually, does not regard winning the general election as the most important issue today (the education of the masses being the most important issue). The sort of person who favours the deselection of labour candidates who do not back momentum.

And of course it won't be hard left to renationalise the NHS if it is sold off. It won't even be hard left to renationalise the railways. It will, however, be tricky because it would be illegal to renationalise the railways without paying the going rate. The government can't simply appropriate goods on a whim, like the Chinese do. For that reason renationalisation of the railways might be impossible. There is a world of difference between bailing out an industry on the brink of bankruptcy (old school nationalisation) and forcibly appropriating a going concern.

Also, if the NHS is sold off, and labour don't get back in for 5, or 10, or 15 years, it may then be impossible to renationalise it for the same reasons of cost. It would be possible as appropriation only if the NHS had been asset stripped in contravention of the laws surrounding provision of health care (albeit Boris could change the laws - and he might).

For renationalisation (as opposed to nationalisation to bail out a failing concern) the stable door is a good analogy here. Even Corbyn understands the stable door - this is why labour are not proposing to forcibly renationalise ex-council houses, even though it is equally as defensible as renationalising the railways, or the NHS, from the perspective of (hard left) doctrine.

And please don't throw MacMillan at me. The times change. The post war concensus meant that even the tories were largely content that huge swathes of UK industry and service was state owned in the 50s and 60s. It was Thatcher who changed all that (driven by doctrine - unconcerned whether the national assets flogged off at cut price were a success or went down the shitter like the coal industry, and unconcerned whether the effect was creation of market competition, or a private monopoly with a licence to print money, like BT and British gas were for a long while, and permitted to proceed by the electorate owing to the opportunity to make easy cash, Sid).

Times change. The hard left are stuck in the past. A past that no longer exists (because it is the past).

So, I'm not one of those people you describe in your first paragraph, I know the kind of person you mean, but I'm not hard left. I am someone though who wants the electable version of Labour not just to be the middle-of-the-road new Labour, the kind of government who put more investment into services but don't change any paradigms. Sure, they support business so that tax revenues are high and use the revenues to support services that the public as a whole agree with - education, police, NHS - as opposed to supporting business but using the revenues primarily to support future tax cuts (aka Tory policy) - if I may generalise for a moment.

So whilst I am happy to support that centrist approach, I also want some more - some fundamental changes on affordable house building, a serious approach to leadership on climate change, proper reform of social care, serious efforts to tackle poverty, and yes, renationalisation of key services and utilities. I don't want to accept that these will only be policies of a left-wing party that will be decried as 'hard-left / marxist / socialist / communist' by the right-wing media and thus can never be elected, I would like these to be policies of a left-of-centre, successful, new 'New Labour' party - because I think they fit there and will carry the support of the people.

I accept Corbyn won't be that leader to deliver this, but I don't see it as a reason to vote Boris either.

 

[darkwolf666]

A candidate you can't stand, and a leader you believe has cost lives.

I feel for you today.

Hug?

At least he's voting for the many and not the few!

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Just been to vote again for Sir Peter Kyle , vote Labour, vote as many times you can. When I came out of the polling station I was asked to do the survey for the exit poll that comes out at 10pm. They must be asking all the INTELLIGANT people they see coming out

You will need to work very hard to persuade me to vote for an anti capitalist party that seeks to remain in the EU, which of course is built on capitalist principles. Their spending plans are bonkers and totally unsustainable and any party looking to turn the clock back 50-60 years, turns me right off. So thats Labour off my list. The Liberals are as far from liberalism as you can get and there is no Green candidate in my constituency. That leaves Tories or Brexit Party.
Still desperately searching for ' None of the above ' on the ballot paper.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Thanks for that (genuinly) at least you try and address the issue unlike some on this board who just rebuff with smears and insults. I reject your idea of opposing the failed neo-liberal establishment as being stuck in the past. I think rather the zeigeist points in the opposite direction. The underpinning of Keynsian consensus has a lot to offer us now allied with Modern Monetary Theory, a green new deal to tackle such issues as global warming. Are the Greens, here and in Europe, and the young justice democrats in the USA such as AOC, and lIhan Omar in the USA also stuck in the past?

Cheers!

I think we should challenge the establishment - always. But I also think Corbyn is stuck in the past (my posts were mainly focused on Corbyn). I am hoping that something modern does emerge, with traction, in the next few years. New left, as opposed to new labour. But it really will need to smell new. I seem to recall Blair embracing communitarianism, then never mentioning it again. Something like that, at 90 degrees to what we have now would be interesting as a focus, maybe.

One big deal for me is the recognition that in a capitalist world politicicians must play by capitalist rules. The minute people start labeling culprits they blame for things as 'capitalists', as if this is a meaningful adjective to describe something bad, they lose me.

I can accept capitalism, like I accept gravity. I have never imagined all I need to do to fly is flap my arms. But that doesn't mean I have to spend all my time with my feet on terra firma.

So, yes please, change, please. But the old fellah, Corbyn, he's not going to deliver change - because he has never had it in him to compromise or negotiate. He's a back bench rebel. He couldn't form a remain coalition because he insisted on leading it. And he is allowing momentum to move to deselect sitting MPs, feeding into the culture of narrow leftist purity. He's no modern thinker, no lateral thinker, no concensus builder....

Give me a modern labour leader, one who may argue that rail must be allowed to fall back into public ownership (see, I have learned my lesson on hat today), one who inspires and has clean hands....

You mention greens... I am not sure why they have failed to obtain traction...I have just downloaded their manifesto....a Universal Basic Income....OK that is communism, and will be much appreciated by folk like that 'off the grid' couple from Brighton (thread posted yesterday)...."delivery of a public and sustainable transport revolution, which will allow people to travel cheaply and safely on new trains," - OK, so they are planning to renationalise the railways like Corbyn...."Ending wasteful spending on government vanity projects and reforming our
tax system so that the wealthiest pay their fair share." - more tax grabbing, but no crossrail....all sounds a bit 'back to nature' ...and an end to use of fossil fuels....public banking infrastructure...OK so are they going to work with capital or seek to overthrow it? Will all the 'investment' come from higher taxes? Anyway none of this matters because they have vanishingly little support....quelle surprise.

Not heard of Ilhan Omar....OK I have just read up on her (Wiki). She sounds like her heart is in the right place. It seems she has a long track record of criticising things (Israel, Saudi Arabia, homophobia, Trump..). But there is nothing original there, and she got herself into hot water using a racist trope about Israel (so easy to do....). She is of course interesting as she is an American muslim female representative. Namechecking her, though...bit of virtue signaling, no?

Sorry, I don't wish to pour water, etc, but I just can't engage with Corbyn as a new hope for the left.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So, I'm not one of those people you describe in your first paragraph, I know the kind of person you mean, but I'm not hard left. I am someone though who wants the electable version of Labour not just to be the middle-of-the-road new Labour, the kind of government who put more investment into services but don't change any paradigms. Sure, they support business so that tax revenues are high and use the revenues to support services that the public as a whole agree with - education, police, NHS - as opposed to supporting business but using the revenues primarily to support future tax cuts (aka Tory policy) - if I may generalise for a moment.

So whilst I am happy to support that centrist approach, I also want some more - some fundamental changes on affordable house building, a serious approach to leadership on climate change, proper reform of social care, serious efforts to tackle poverty, and yes, renationalisation of key services and utilities. I don't want to accept that these will only be policies of a left-wing party that will be decried as 'hard-left / marxist / socialist / communist' by the right-wing media and thus can never be elected, I would like these to be policies of a left-of-centre, successful, new 'New Labour' party - because I think they fit there and will carry the support of the people.

I accept Corbyn won't be that leader to deliver this, but I don't see it as a reason to vote Boris either.

Indeed!