[Politics] The General Election Thread

[Triggaaar]

How do you think the wealthy have increased their wealth by £253n over the last five years? Why, thanks to Conservative-led changes to ... inheritance tax that’s how!

So the wealthy have increased their wealth by dying?

Impressive.

 

[beorhthelm]

looking at the polls, either Tories are in for a big win or a lot of pollsters will be binned off. i expected a hung parliament and thought polling was off, while Labour broke through 30%, Tories have stayed above 40%, with one showing 15% lead. given such poor campaign and mediocre manifesto that is quite astounding.

 

[lawros left foot]

Tweeted by Another angry voice on twitter

If you're terrified of @jeremycorbyn's radical hard-left economic plans, I've got some REALLY IMPORTANT ADVICE for you, should he become Prime Minister [thread]

You'll obviously be thinking about leaving the UK, but you'll want to be extra careful to avoid making the mistake of relocating to countries that already have scary hard-left policies like commie Corbyn's in place ... so you'll need to draw up a "No Go" list ...

If it's tuition-free university education you're afraid of, then Germany, France, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Belgium, Spain, Austria, Greece, Argentina, India, Brazil, Mexico ... are out of the question.

Add them to your "No Go" list now.

If it's slightly increasing Corporation Tax to 26% from the all-time low rate the Tories have reduced it to since 2010, that rules out Canada, Japan, Australia, Colombia, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Pakistan, Nigeria, Costa Rica, Peru, Kenya, Sri Lanka, El Salvador, South Africa ...

Italy, Morocco, Chile, Monaco, Uganda, Cuba, Tunisia, Philippines, Namibia, Nepal, Jamaica, Guyana, DR Congo, Bangladesh ...(also many others already mentioned - France, Germany Belgium, Austria, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina ...)

All of these countries have Corporation Tax rates above Corbyn's proposed rate of 26%, so add them all to your "No Go" list now.

Corbyn wants to roll out super-fast broadband, so if you're terrified of that, then Japan, South Korea, and Uruguay are out of the question too, because they've achieved almost 100% universal super-fast broadband coverage.
If it's a National Investment Bank that's making you quake in your boots, then Norway is now absolutely out of the question because they've used their North Sea oil dividends to build the richest sovereign wealth fund on the planet, despite only having a population of 5 million!
Other countries with sovereign wealth funds that you'll have to add to your 'No Go' list include Singapore, China, India, Hong Kong, UAE, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Angola, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Qatar, Malaysia, Iran, Trinidad and Tobago, Russia, Brunei, Azerbaijan, Vietnam, Gabon,
Turkey, Oman, Bahrain, Algeria, Venezuela, Ireland, Botswana, Panama, Senegal, Iraq, Kiribati, Mongolia, Equatorial Guinea, Ghana, Turkmenistan, Rwanda & Palestine (as well as many others already on your list like Germany, Mexico, Ireland, S. Korea, Canada, Australia, France ...)
When it comes to Corbyn's plans to bring the railways back under public ownership, nations with public not-for-profit rail systems to avoid include the Netherlands, Poland, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Romania, Latvia, Ukraine, Belarus, Portugal, Hungary, Switzerland, Albania,
Czech Republic, (100% owned by Austria's state railway), Estonia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Lithuania, Serbia (56%), Liechtenstein (owned by Austria's state railway), Bulgaria (remember other 'no go' countries like France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Russia, Ireland... too)
If publicly owned rail scares you silly, you'll also have to stay off trains in the UK, because under the Tories' crackpot rail privatisation agenda 74% of UK rail services are now operated by the state railways of foreign governments (Netherlands, Germany, Singapore, Italy ...)

You'll have noticed that I only bothered with Europe for the publicly-owned railways, and basically every country in Europe has been added to your 'no go' list now, and I've not even got to public water & energy distribution which are absolutely commonplace across the world.

In some of the few places on earth ever to have privatised their water supply (eg Argentina & Bolivia) strong public resistance has resulted in eventual renationalisation. If not-for-profit drinking water upsets you, you're going to have to plan your travels very carefully indeed

Also very few countries have ever allowed their entire electricity transmission and distribution network (about the most obvious natural monopoly it's possible to think of) to fall into private hands.

So check carefully. Maybe Somalia's energy supply is privatised?

One of the countries you've not had to add to your 'No Go' list so far is Israel, but Israel Electric Corporation is government owned, so add them now.

You may be desperately holding out hope on one major nation I've not mentioned yet ��, thinking that they're definitely more right-wing than the UK, but you'd be wrong.

In the United States lots of infrastructure and public investment is devolved to state level, where not-for-profit state operated water supplies and electricity grids are commonplace.

Also several US states have Sovereign Wealth Funds (Alaska, Texas, Utah Idaho, Oregon ...).

The US colony of Puerto Rico has a government owned electricity supply too, so you can't hope to settle there on a technicality either

I'm afraid that if Jeremy Corbyn's policies are too scary for you, you're just going to have to stay away from the United States, because of their frighteningly 'communist' tendencies.


You may also have noticed that I've forgotten to mention Scotland (free education, not-for-profit water) Northern Ireland (public trains), and Wales (not-for-profit water), so add them to your 'No Go' list now.

The Isle of Man is also out of question for their tiny (but terrifying) state owned railway too, just in case you were wondering.

So it turns out that if you're absolutely bricking it about Corbyn's scary policies then you'd better stay in England for the rest of your life, avoiding the rail network, continually checking for "Reds Under the Bed!", and praying that the Tories never, ever, lose an election!

 

[Two Professors]

Yes Jess Phillips is bloody fantastic, we could do with a lot more like her.

Please take her,if you can find her.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Maybe, maybe not....
The poor, homeless and vulnerable don't deserve Johnson and his mendacious crew - and it is easy to forget they are part of 'we'.

I have every confidence that Corbyn's modest home will be filled with those less fortunate over the festive period and beyond.

 

[Triggaaar]

Wow, looks like the Greens copped it off of Neil too tonight, as did Brexit bods.

I only caught the last half of her interview, and I thought she did fine. Andrew would ask her a question and then just continually talk over the top of her answers.

I get that in recent years politicians stopped answering questions, choosing to just repeat sound-bites instead, so it's made sense for journalists to talk over their sound-bites and repeat questions where necessary. But that's not what was happening. Siân appeared to be trying to answer openly, but he just wouldn't let her speak. Although I'm usually fine with Neil, he just came across to me as a belligerent reporter, more interested in appearing tough than in actually getting answers to questions.

Did she come across poorly at the start of the interview?

 

[Is it PotG?]

I only caught the last half of her interview, and I thought she did fine. Andrew would ask her a question and then just continually talk over the top of her answers.

I get that in recent years politicians stopped answering questions, choosing to just repeat sound-bites instead, so it's made sense for journalists to talk over their sound-bites and repeat questions where necessary. But that's not what was happening. Siân appeared to be trying to answer openly, but he just wouldn't let her speak. Although I'm usually fine with Neil, he just came across to me as a belligerent reporter, more interested in appearing tough than in actually getting answers to questions.

Did she come across poorly at the start of the interview?

Personally I thought that she struggled. Watch the whole show on iPlayer and see what you think.
Also be interested on your views on the first interview.

 

[darkwolf666]

Yep, that's it. It's definitely the fault of all those selfish barstards, and in no way the fault of Labour for not offering an alternative that people can stomach.

Agree, but I just can’t believe we are sleepwalking towards another 5 years of hell.. and all the while while the poor and disadvantaged are being trodden on the Tories will be able to say, “but you voted for us and gave us a mandate to shit on you”...!

“Brexit, sorry, what’s that, don’t know what you’re on about, was that part of our manifesto?”

 

[Chicken Run]

Tweeted by Another angry voice on twitter

If you're terrified of @jeremycorbyn's radical hard-left economic plans, I've got some REALLY IMPORTANT ADVICE for you, should he become Prime Minister [thread]

You'll obviously be thinking about leaving the UK, but you'll want to be extra careful to avoid making the mistake of relocating to countries that already have scary hard-left policies like commie Corbyn's in place ... so you'll need to draw up a "No Go" list ...

If it's tuition-free university education you're afraid of, then Germany, France, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Belgium, Spain, Austria, Greece, Argentina, India, Brazil, Mexico ... are out of the question.

Add them to your "No Go" list now.

If it's slightly increasing Corporation Tax to 26% from the all-time low rate the Tories have reduced it to since 2010, that rules out Canada, Japan, Australia, Colombia, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Pakistan, Nigeria, Costa Rica, Peru, Kenya, Sri Lanka, El Salvador, South Africa ...

Italy, Morocco, Chile, Monaco, Uganda, Cuba, Tunisia, Philippines, Namibia, Nepal, Jamaica, Guyana, DR Congo, Bangladesh ...(also many others already mentioned - France, Germany Belgium, Austria, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina ...)

All of these countries have Corporation Tax rates above Corbyn's proposed rate of 26%, so add them all to your "No Go" list now.

Corbyn wants to roll out super-fast broadband, so if you're terrified of that, then Japan, South Korea, and Uruguay are out of the question too, because they've achieved almost 100% universal super-fast broadband coverage.
If it's a National Investment Bank that's making you quake in your boots, then Norway is now absolutely out of the question because they've used their North Sea oil dividends to build the richest sovereign wealth fund on the planet, despite only having a population of 5 million!
Other countries with sovereign wealth funds that you'll have to add to your 'No Go' list include Singapore, China, India, Hong Kong, UAE, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Angola, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Qatar, Malaysia, Iran, Trinidad and Tobago, Russia, Brunei, Azerbaijan, Vietnam, Gabon,
Turkey, Oman, Bahrain, Algeria, Venezuela, Ireland, Botswana, Panama, Senegal, Iraq, Kiribati, Mongolia, Equatorial Guinea, Ghana, Turkmenistan, Rwanda & Palestine (as well as many others already on your list like Germany, Mexico, Ireland, S. Korea, Canada, Australia, France ...)
When it comes to Corbyn's plans to bring the railways back under public ownership, nations with public not-for-profit rail systems to avoid include the Netherlands, Poland, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Romania, Latvia, Ukraine, Belarus, Portugal, Hungary, Switzerland, Albania,
Czech Republic, (100% owned by Austria's state railway), Estonia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Lithuania, Serbia (56%), Liechtenstein (owned by Austria's state railway), Bulgaria (remember other 'no go' countries like France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Russia, Ireland... too)
If publicly owned rail scares you silly, you'll also have to stay off trains in the UK, because under the Tories' crackpot rail privatisation agenda 74% of UK rail services are now operated by the state railways of foreign governments (Netherlands, Germany, Singapore, Italy ...)

You'll have noticed that I only bothered with Europe for the publicly-owned railways, and basically every country in Europe has been added to your 'no go' list now, and I've not even got to public water & energy distribution which are absolutely commonplace across the world.

In some of the few places on earth ever to have privatised their water supply (eg Argentina & Bolivia) strong public resistance has resulted in eventual renationalisation. If not-for-profit drinking water upsets you, you're going to have to plan your travels very carefully indeed

Also very few countries have ever allowed their entire electricity transmission and distribution network (about the most obvious natural monopoly it's possible to think of) to fall into private hands.

So check carefully. Maybe Somalia's energy supply is privatised?

One of the countries you've not had to add to your 'No Go' list so far is Israel, but Israel Electric Corporation is government owned, so add them now.

You may be desperately holding out hope on one major nation I've not mentioned yet , thinking that they're definitely more right-wing than the UK, but you'd be wrong.

In the United States lots of infrastructure and public investment is devolved to state level, where not-for-profit state operated water supplies and electricity grids are commonplace.

Also several US states have Sovereign Wealth Funds (Alaska, Texas, Utah Idaho, Oregon ...).

The US colony of Puerto Rico has a government owned electricity supply too, so you can't hope to settle there on a technicality either

I'm afraid that if Jeremy Corbyn's policies are too scary for you, you're just going to have to stay away from the United States, because of their frighteningly 'communist' tendencies.


You may also have noticed that I've forgotten to mention Scotland (free education, not-for-profit water) Northern Ireland (public trains), and Wales (not-for-profit water), so add them to your 'No Go' list now.

The Isle of Man is also out of question for their tiny (but terrifying) state owned railway too, just in case you were wondering.

So it turns out that if you're absolutely bricking it about Corbyn's scary policies then you'd better stay in England for the rest of your life, avoiding the rail network, continually checking for "Reds Under the Bed!", and praying that the Tories never, ever, lose an election!

I don’t think anyone of sane mind is bricking it, the closest Corbyn will get to his policies being implemented is if the other partner coalition parties agree to them.

 

[knocky1]

There's rarely been a better post on this thread.

Firstly, Socialism does not sell. Not in its purest form. We are not all equal. We are born of different sexes and races, rich, poor, fat, thin, clever, stupid. Probably by the age of seven you can go in to a class and see there are spiv kids that will make money, geek kids that will go into tech or education, cool kids who'll do something in music, kids who are already drifing in to bad behaviour and then kids who may not be eating, may have a disability or illness, may be abused. The trick is to provide genuine assistance and safety for the vulnerable last group without stifling the creativity, geekiness, entreprenurial spirit and cleverness of the others. Pure socialism doesn't do that. Never has done and never will. It drags EVERYONE down to the bottom level. Or, as in Venezuela, it turns the whole country anarchic and the law of the jungle persists, which is a kind of Opposite Socialism.

So fundamentalism is a pretty hard sell and the British public won't stand for it. Never have done and never will. Labour's answer to being wiped out by Thatcher? Let's throw in a scruffy, elderly, bookish sort who'll get the hard left plan back on track. Whoops. So they kick out Foot and then what happens? A slow drift towards social democract begats Militant Tendency, Degsy swanning round Liverpool in expensed cabs, years of infighting, no government. John Smith finally comes along and looks like he'll sort out the party and the country and tragically dies but lighbulbs go on for the first time since Nineteen Effing Seventy Nine. Blair waters down a bit of the rhetoric. He also has a much feared and very effective press team (Campbell was the left's answer to Boris's Dom before Boris's Dom was drinking legally). And guess what? Massive election win and a first term that contained progressive policy after progressive policy.

So what do they do when it finally all ends? They put Corbyn in almost as a joke. An oversight. A last thought. To make it more FAIR. Socialism's biggest failing writ large. And he turns the whole party back to 1983 all over again just as the Tories lurch to the right of Thatcher. And STILL there are people complainng that Labour is not Socialist enough

That makes John Major appear extreme hard left, a former bus conductor, ruining the country by putting service stations on the M25.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Firstly, Socialism does not sell. Not in its purest form. We are not all equal. We are born of different sexes and races, rich, poor, fat, thin, clever, stupid. Probably by the age of seven you can go in to a class and see there are spiv kids that will make money, geek kids that will go into tech or education, cool kids who'll do something in music, kids who are already drifing in to bad behaviour and then kids who may not be eating, may have a disability or illness, may be abused. The trick is to provide genuine assistance and safety for the vulnerable last group without stifling the creativity, geekiness, entreprenurial spirit and cleverness of the others.

Children are products of their environment (and poverty) who are forced through an education system based on 18th century industrialisation - while the rich kids are products of their environment - private schools that perpetuate inequality.

And capitalism absolutely stifles creativity and inventiveness.

Pure socialism doesn't do that. Never has done and never will. It drags EVERYONE down to the bottom level. Or, as in Venezuela, it turns the whole country anarchic and the law of the jungle persists, which is a kind of Opposite Socialism.

Pure capitalism progressively drags 99% of the population into the gutter to grease the palms of the super rich who use their power to maintain their political, economic and social control to protect their wealth. Socialism opens up the opportunity for equality of opportunity based on human solidarity, cooperation and community.

Venezuela was not and is not in any way remotely socialist - Chavez was a nationalist populist who used left rhetoric - he never challenged the ownership of the economy by the rich elites. He used oil revenues to vastly improve the lot of the working class and the masses of the poor (while the oligarchs attempted to sabotage the economy) - and ran into trouble when the oil money dried up after the financial crisis in 2008. Maduro is a corrupt bureaucratic tiinpot dictator who has been doing deals with the oligarchs and the Americans in the hope they won't bump him off.

So fundamentalism is a pretty hard sell and the British public won't stand for it. Never have done and never will. Labour's answer to being wiped out by Thatcher? Let's throw in a scruffy, elderly, bookish sort who'll get the hard left plan back on track. Whoops. So they kick out Foot and then what happens? A slow drift towards social democract begats Militant Tendency, Degsy swanning round Liverpool in expensed cabs, years of infighting, no government. John Smith finally comes along and looks like he'll sort out the party and the country and tragically dies but lighbulbs go on for the first time since Nineteen Effing Seventy Nine. Blair waters down a bit of the rhetoric. He also has a much feared and very effective press team (Campbell was the left's answer to Boris's Dom before Boris's Dom was drinking legally). And guess what? Massive election win and a first term that contained progressive policy after progressive policy.

1. Socialism is not fundamentalism any more than capitalism - it is simply a different way of organising society that benefits the many instead of the few.
2. Labour's answer to Thatcher was to abandon socialist policies an try and out-Tory the Tories - Lord Kinnock (how apt) was the original Blairite (and I know Kinnock - he was another one I was obliged to have 'dinner' with - and I have yet to meet a more smarmy bollix).
3. The socialist council in Liverpool built thousands of houses, created thousands of jobs, built schools, nurseries, leisure centres,, public parks - were repeatedly re-elected and the only way that the Tories could get them out of office was to shut down the council - surcharge the councillors and ban them from office for 20 years.
4. Smith was a smarter version of Kinnock - who was intent on following the same path to Blairism
5. Blair got elected - not because of anything he did - but because the Tories were so mired on corruption that even screaming Lord Sutch could have beaten them.
6. Blair implemented Tory policies with as much gusto and any Tory leader, including Thatcher - and mired Britain in several wars that cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

So what do they do when it finally all ends? They put Corbyn in almost as a joke. An oversight. A last thought. To make it more FAIR. Socialism's biggest failing writ large. And he turns the whole party back to 1983 all over again just as the Tories lurch to the right of Thatcher. And STILL there are people complainng that Labour is not Socialist enough

Corbyn got elected because the Blairites were so similar and boring they thought he could be used as a punchbag - and it blew up spectacularly in their faces. His election reinvigorated the LP and brought hundreds of thousands into membership.

If you want to beat the Tories you don't propose watered down Tory policies - which you inevitably end up implementing as Tory cuts - you beat the Tories by demonstrating that there is a different way - a way that cares about people not profit - that works for the many not the few - and that is not dictated to by the high priests of the market, the banks and the stock exchange.

 

[Weststander]

Quite.

The only thing I'm unsure about is whether it is that we get the governments we deserve or that governments get the electorate they deserve.

We believe our own view of the country, is better than those who think differently to us.

Brighton, Hove and Lewes, is different to so many other places. NSC is a microcosm of that. We have zero interest in and don’t understand the views of many, many millions living in the East, Midlands, Wales and North who have a different take than us. An air of arrogance that we, here, know best on all things political and economic.

But then Stokies and Tykes quite probably think that they know best.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

looking at the polls, either Tories are in for a big win or a lot of pollsters will be binned off. i expected a hung parliament and thought polling was off, while Labour broke through 30%, Tories have stayed above 40%, with one showing 15% lead. given such poor campaign and mediocre manifesto that is quite astounding.

This election is unpredictable - the polls are weighted against young voters - yet large numbers (hundreds of thousands) have been registering to vote over the past few weeks - if they vote and who they vote for will be the key to the election.

 

[vegster]

Well, Corbyn is a shit salesman, then.

Renationalising the railways is a bit of a give away, though.

Uncosted nonsense (just as the tory's is).

Anyway, the name of the game is Get Brexit Done so the mad spending promises by both sides is irrelevant.

Dunno why, Corbyn's promises seem shitter though. Maybe it is because he has also studiously refused to get Brexit done (one way or the other) and comes across as a daffy old tit. I say that as someone who will be voting labour tomorrow

As a point of interest, can you think of any ex- nationalised industry that is more efficient ( ie costs the taxpayer/ consumer less) and costs less to run than when under government ownership?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

We believe our own view of the country, is better than those who think differently to us.

Brighton, Hove and Lewes, is different to so many other places. NSC is a microcosm of that. We have zero interest in and don’t understand the views of many, many millions living in the East, Midlands, Wales and North who have a different take than us. An air of arrogance that we, here, know best on all things political and economic.

But then Stokies and Tykes quite probably think that they know best.

The people of Brighton, Hove and Lewes are no different than any other part of Britain, indeed of Europe or farther afield - there are rich and poor, people who think that they are middle class and are just slightly better off working class people, people who are completely alienated from the political system and those who try to maintain the status quo and those who fight to change it.

B&H is a microcosm of everywhere else - including where I live.

 

[beorhthelm]

And capitalism absolutely stifles creativity and inventiveness.

could you share some of the inventions and creations from socialism?

 

[theonlymikey]

Where's Boris?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Much rather this guy:

Ah yes - the guy who wants to privatise the NHS, all council homes to be sold to property speculators - and the reopening of workhouses for the poor.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

My Income Tax has decreased year on year, thanks to an annual increase in Personal Allowance combined with wage stagnation. I would love to contribute more tax to society but I can't unless I get more earnings!

maybe they should get them money off the 15,000 people who each made an average of £554,000 from the Tories income tax cut.

 

[beorhthelm]

The people of Brighton, Hove and Lewes are no different than any other part of Britain, indeed of Europe or farther afield - there are rich and poor, people who think that they are middle class and are just slightly better off working class people, people who are completely alienated from the political system and those who try to maintain the status quo and those who fight to change it.

B&H is a microcosm of everywhere else - including where I live.

that is some stunning arrogance, telling us who live here who and what we are.