[Politics] The General Election Thread

[theonlymikey]

an odd argument, not sure what to say. yes i do, its still free regardless of the justification or virtue.

So money goes in, service comes out - "free"

Same logic- in shop - Money goes in, t shirt comes out in a shop - Free t-shirt?

 

[Lever]

Come on Boldy, you know why Heseltine won't back Boris.

Boris has outclassed him on the hair front.

Envy is a terrible thing.

...possibly the most trivial, pointless and humourless contribution to these election exchanges so far.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I see... so Johnson's lies are somehow more acceptable than anyone else's and it's okay to vote the nonpareil of liars back into office.......

They are no more acceptable than anyone else’s lies, but there have not been 14,000 of them.

 

[BenGarfield]

I think you need to go back and have a look at the political and economic nature of socialism - and then have a look at all the different economic approaches implemented by capitalism (all of which have ultimately hit the brick wall of contradictions inherent in the capitalist system).

I tend to agree. I have spouted on about MMT merely to counter the assertions by some that there is "no magic money tree" , the economy is like a household budget, we risk giving our children unsustainable debt, etc, etc. Using MMT analysis may help paper over the cracks in capitalism but on its own may not be enough. It says nothing about the limits of growth green issues, or whether GDP is a good measure of economic health.

 

[wellquickwoody]

So if the Labour Party loudly announced that it was introducing a tax change that would see you getting a £100 bonus in your £500 pay packet every week but on investigating you discovered that they were actually going to give you £40 more whilst at the same time delaying their plan to charge you £60 extra tax you would not feel in the tiniest way a little bit misled? Even though your pay would rise to only £540?

But they have not said that there will be 50k new nurses, have they?

 

[beorhthelm]

MMT doesnt propose "unlimited funds" for fiscal policy. A key componemt of it is the control of inflation but not necessarily soley by traditional neo-con methods such as controlling the money supply or interest rates. I could elaborate but would risk boring the pants off everyone if I havent already.

of course its unlimited, the government just creates money in their spending and it comes into the economy - believe you said so yourself. no concepts of base money, economic output increasing the broad money supply, just government. that interest rates are a thing, and not used in MMT, is another proof it does not reflect reality but an aspirational idea of how some would like economy to work.

 

[Lever]

They are no more acceptable than anyone else’s lies, but there have not been 14,000 of them.

You don't quite answer the point.
If Johnson's lies are as unacceptable as anyone else's then why is it okay to vote him back into office (whether or not the volume is in the tens of thousands)?

 

[beorhthelm]

So money goes in, service comes out - "free"

Same logic- in shop - Money goes in, t shirt comes out in a shop - Free t-shirt?

indeed, following that logic only tax payers get the services, upto the value of tax they paid.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But they have not said that there will be 50k new nurses, have they?

 

[Lever]

Blindsided by the evidence again......

 

[WATFORD zero]

They are no more acceptable than anyone else’s lies, but there have not been 14,000 of them.

But there haven't been 14,000 of them.

Does that sound just a little bit desperate

 

[BenGarfield]

of course its unlimited, the government just creates money in their spending and it comes into the economy - believe you said so yourself. that interest rates are a thing, and not used in MMT, is another proof it does not reflect reality but an aspirational idea of how some would like economy to work.

It can only spend as much it likes within the limits of inflation and yes interest rates would be one of the tools but not as restricted as traditional policies e.g.

"government should be directly involved continuously over the cycle, by putting in place structural macroeconomic programs that directly manage the labor force, pricing mechanisms, and investment projects, and constantly monitoring financial developments... . But MMT goes beyond full employment policy as it also promotes capital controls for open economies, credit controls, and socialization of investment. Wage rates and interest rate management are also important"

 

[Bozza]

Blindsided by the evidence again......

Really?

All I heard, repeatedly was '50,000 more nurses". The video was posted to prove "50,000 new nurses" was said.

Wrong video, perhaps?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But they have not said that there will be 50k new nurses, have they?

Really?

All I heard, repeatedly was '50,000 more nurses". The video was posted to prove "50,000 new nurses" was said.

Wrong video, perhaps?

No, the right video. The Tories say 50,000 more nurses, when 19,000 of them are retained so therefore not new.
My maths says it should be 31,000 more nurses.

 

[beorhthelm]

It can only spend as much it likes within the limits of inflation and yes interest rates would be one of the tools but not as restricted as traditional policies e.g.

"government should be directly involved continuously over the cycle, by putting in place structural macroeconomic programs that directly manage the labor force, pricing mechanisms, and investment projects, and constantly monitoring financial developments... . But MMT goes beyond full employment policy as it also promotes capital controls for open economies, credit controls, and socialization of investment. Wage rates and interest rate management are also important"

sound like a vehicle for a lot of control of the economy by the state. may be it should go as far as all credit in the hands of the state, through a national bank with exclusive monopoly on capital control?

 

[Ernest]

No, the right video. The Tories say 50,000 more nurses, when 19,000 of them are retained so therefore not new.
My maths says it should be 31,000 more nurses.

And it's not all nurses but the majority will be nurse assistants

 

[Lincoln Imp]

But they have not said that there will be 50k new nurses, have they?

Oh come on. They have said there will be 50000 more nurses, just as in my analogy you would be offered 100 extra pounds. Stop deflecting.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

And it's not all nurses but the majority will be nurse assistants

Yes, health care assistants who don't cost as much.
In the meantime, all the SRNs from the 60s & 70s are reaching retirement age, and not being replaced.

 

[BenGarfield]

Yes, health care assistants who don't cost as much.
In the meantime, all the SRNs from the 60s & 70s are reaching retirement age, and not being replaced.

Huge mistake "professionalising" nursing by making them do degrees instead of getting pay right from the off whilst they attended nursing college and also learnt on the wards.

 

[WATFORD zero]

No, the right video. The Tories say 50,000 more nurses, when 19,000 of them are retained so therefore not new.
My maths says it should be 31,000 more nurses.

People these days have no idea of the value of a HGSG 'GCE' in maths