The Coronavirus plan, Stan

[Jolly Red Giant]

One example of social solidarity from Ireland - on Friday an individual launched a gofundme page to raise €100 to buy pizza for staff in the local hospital - by Monday the page had raised more than €100,000 - this individual, working with 10 volunteers is now buying sandwiches etc from deli shops that were closing and buying pre-prepared meals from restaurants that were closing to supply them to staff in hospitals all over Ireland so that health staff get fed decent food without having to queue and pay in the hospital and have pre-prepared dinners to bring home for themselves and their families. Staff are only taking the meals if they need them to make sure that those who most need help get the benefit.

Of course this is precisely what the government should be doing - getting deli shops and restaurants that are closing because of this crisis going - providing meals to those in self-isolation and to workers in essential industries and services etc. But the government is incapable of this type of planning - instead it is left to individuals to demonstrate how social solidarity works.

 

[Is it PotG?]

One example of social solidarity from Ireland - on Friday an individual launched a gofundme page to raise €100 to buy pizza for staff in the local hospital - by Monday the page had raised more than €100,000 - this individual, working with 10 volunteers is now buying sandwiches etc from deli shops that were closing and buying pre-prepared meals from restaurants that were closing to supply them to staff in hospitals all over Ireland so that health staff get fed decent food without having to queue and pay in the hospital and have pre-prepared dinners to bring home for themselves and their families. Staff are only taking the meals if they need them to make sure that those who most need help get the benefit.

Of course this is precisely what the government should be doing - getting deli shops and restaurants that are closing because of this crisis going - providing meals to those in self-isolation and to workers in essential industries and services etc. But the government is incapable of this type of planning - instead it is left to individuals to demonstrate how social solidarity works.

That was a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the JRG Party.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

That was a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the JRG Party.

It is a sensible and appropriate measure -

And yes - capitalism and the establishment politicians are exacerbating the crisis by trying to protect the 'market'.

 

[SeagullCrow]

[Tweet]1239916383485472768[/Tweet]

It would be something of a miracle if we could keep the death toll down to 20,000 or below as Vallance predicts

 

[Swansman]

Be nice if the media focused on this a bit instead of the armageddon narrative. Worrying about the virus is one thing, worrying about whether you will slide into abject financial ruin is not helping. One of the first things Macron did when addressing the nation was pledge a huge pot of money to ease the pain to businesses. Boris should do the same.

Well, more or less everyone everywhere has done it.

Anything other than your and practically every government throwing money right and left is unthinkable at this point. It will likely lead to a number of problems in the long run but short term I dont think businesses and individuals should worry too much. Government wallet will open. Im sure.

And, unless this is one of their doings, the wealthiest 0,01% should either open there wallets as well or get their resources confiscated. Less sure thats happening...

 

[Bold Seagull]

The Spanish flu pandemic broke out in January 1918 during WW1 - the British, French, German and US governments suppressed all reporting of the pandemic. This facilitated the spread of the virus around the globe. The second wave, a mutated strain of H1N1, hit in October, - prompted mainly because of the conditions in the trenches - those with a severe reaction were sent on crowded trains into crowded hospitals where they spread infection. Those who had survived the first wave were immune - but the second wave killed a large number of young people who lacked immunity. On top of that, large numbers died from aspirin poisoning after the US Surgeon General recommended large doses of aspirin as treatment. The 1918 pandemic killed between 50million and 100million people - largely because of the antics of the warring powers in suppressing information - coupled with the extremely poor living conditions at the time.

I have already outlined the long-term strategy - test, test, test and contact tracing - isolate those infected, treating those serious ill. Implement widespread social distancing, including shutting schools. Extend and flat line the rate of infection to help the health service to cope - and over a prolonged period those with immunity will reach a critical mass in society (either through infection or vaccination or a combination of both).


Ireland shut its schools last Thursday - it was 4 weeks too late - we are now expecting infections in Ireland to go from 250 cases to 15,000 cases in the next ten days. Every day that Johnson refuses to instruct the schools to close will increase the spike the UK will be hit with and increase the number of deaths (possibly double the number of deaths). The NHS will not be able to cope and over 65s will not be treated.

How long is a good question - I would shut the schools until September. I am a school teacher and I am currently assigning work and conducting classes online and I will continue to do so for as long as the schools are closed. Care needs to be taken when re-opening the schools and I would stagger the opening, bringing in exam classes first and staggering other classes at two week intervals. Education is important - but keeping people alive is more important - if it takes more time for students to complete their education then that is a very small price to pay for keeping people alive.


Civil rest is a distinct possibility - indeed this pandemic could lead to revolutionary upheavals - and any civil unrest in Britain will be directly the result of Johnson's policies of protecting big business rather than protecting the mass of the population. The reason why he is telling people not to go to pubs and restaurants but refusing to instruct them to close is to protect the insurance industry, while letting small businesses go to the wall.


Ireland are shut for two weeks - but it will get extended until after Easter and then possibly up to the summer. The optimum time to shut the schools was four weeks ago - and every week of a delay will contribute to the crisis in the UK. Johnson is not operating based on medical advice - he is operating in the interests of big business. School principals and teachers know how daft the approach of the Tories is and parents are acutely aware of the dangers of keeping schools open and large numbers are already keeping their kids at home. Health professionals are constantly criticising Johnson and the Tories - my daughter who is a ICU doctor in London and sees the impact of the Tory's approach, has called Johnson a '*tw*t' and everyone she works with is of a similar view.


I have criticised the Tories for what they are and are not doing - I also criticise the approach of the government in Ireland, their delay will ultimately cost hundreds, if not thousands of lives. This virus doesn't recognise borders and the failure of one country to act in an even minimal way threatens everyone on the planet.

There is zero evidence that geography or climate has any impact on the spread of the virus - healthcare systems most certainly do - but as we have seen in Italy, even a highly developed healthcare system can be completely overwhelmed by the scale of the crisis.

But you are absolutely wrong to say there is 'no universal action' - the WHO has said - test, test, test, contact trace and quarantine and isolate - countries that have implement these and other measure early, like South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan have, so far, been the most effective at slowing the rate of infection and minimising the number of deaths. The advantage of the timing of the spread of the virus is that countries had an opportunity to act to slow the spread - most didn't, including Ireland, and the UK still hasn't implemented the necessary measures.

Now many more measures should be implemented - like nationalising private hospitals - nationalising all trains and buses and implementing free public transport with proper sanitising and social distancing - only allowing contactless payments, with increased limits, and telling the banks they cannot impose charges and that they have to indemnify people against possible fraud - suspending all mortgage and rent payments - a ban on evictions - guaranteeing the wages of all workers forced out of work etc. etc

There is a factory in Surrey that has enough source materials on site to make 3.5million test kits - yet no order from the NHS - that is the scale of the irresponsibility of the Tory government.

This pandemic will have an enormous impact globally - and when it broke out in China months ago I was warning people about the potential impact - many people will die - but to do pretty much nothing, which Johnson is doing with his 'herd immunity' is utterly callous and irresponsible. And from an Irish perspective it is also impacting here. We are the only people with a land border with the UK - and there are many workers and students who live on one side of the border between North and South and work or go to school on the other side. Johnson's irresponsible policies are impacting on the spread of the virus in Ireland and the ability of the measures introduced in Ireland to mitigate the rate of increase.


This is nonsense - a small number of irresponsible people can have a massive impact on the ability of the mass of the population to survive this crisis. Employers refusing to pay workers who are off, forcing them to go to work when they should be self-quarantining or self-isolating - Richard Branson telling Virgin workers to take 8 weeks unpaid leave when he could pay every worker for the 8 weeks and only see a drop of 0.002% in his wealth - landlords telling tenants that they have to pay rent for April upfront now or face the prospect of eviction etc - and then idiots who think that they can go to the pub with impunity, irrespective of the consequences for others. In the current circumstances - the common good trumps your nonsense about an 'obedient, motivated population'. The reality is that working class people are motivated - motivated to stop the spread of the virus by implementing social distancing (including keeping their kids out of school), motivated by setting up community support groups to help those who are self-isolating, support groups for hospital and care staff who are at the coal face, support groups for workers being forced out of work with no pay etc etc


I guarantee you that the UK government has got it wrong - and the evidence is already there - that is not to say that other governments have got it right - they haven't - they waited weeks too long before implementing measures and they still are not doing what is needed to plan a course through this crisis that minimises the number of people that will die - but what Johnson and the Tories are doing is a scandal and unfortunately many people will die unnecessarily as a result.

Taken me a while to digest all that.

I don't disagree with some of what you say, but there are things such as when to close schools is not a magic bullet, it might help, it might not, it's not a definitively certain measure, and I think it is coming anyway. I doubt the impact from schools alone is as great as you're making out depending on when you do it, it's not even certain that kids transmit this disease as easily as they do others, so the closures are largely hypothetical in that the assumption is schools are heightened spreaders the same as they are for seasonal flus and colds, but that might not necessarily be the case.

Now I am a Labour member, a socialist at heart, but also believe in democracy. The country elected Boris Johnson and his party unequivocally to lead this country based on their manifesto, their ideology, and their way of doing things. To rant and rave about privatisation, private wealth, private health care, austerity and all the rest of it is fine, but the country knew all that when we went to the polls. They are currently leading this country as they were mandated to do, and they appear to be following scientific guidance as it is presented to them. There is no reason why our scientists aren't completely right and the WHO scientists have some of this wrong. There are many variables and many difference to how even say China / HK / South Korea / Taiwan are handling this. You cannot lump them together as one set of similar actions, because they are different.

I don't disagree that testing should be wide spread to help contain but I also don't know whether access to tests is as easy as writing a cheque. Announcement today seems to be we are looking to increase testing.

I hope they do implement measures to help workers, those most in need, help businesses survive, but it will be done on the democratic principles for which the government was elected. You and I may not like it, but that is what will happen.

Churchill, often included as one of our great PMs lost the election directly after the war. Boris Johnson will be defined by this crisis, and the country will hold him and his party to account. Even in victory, the people didn't reward Churchill with another term. Unless Johnson does some of the things you are suggesting, I don't think he'll be forgiven.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I don't disagree with some of what you say, but there are things such as when to close schools is not a magic bullet, it might help, it might not, it's not a definitively certain measure, and I think it is coming anyway. I doubt the impact from schools alone is as great as you're making out depending on when you do it,

I never said it was a magic bullet - I said that it was an important part of creating social distancing that will have a significant impact in conjunction with other measures - none of them work on their own, but when on crucial part is missing it can have a major impact.

it's not even certain that kids transmit this disease as easily as they do others,

Wow - oh wow - you do know how this virus is transmitted?

so the closures are largely hypothetical in that the assumption is schools are heightened spreaders the same as they are for seasonal flus and colds, but that might not necessarily be the case.

Again wow - and the evidence from those countries that have been more successful in containing the spread of infection demonstrates that school closures are a key part of social distancing.

Now I am a Labour member, a socialist at heart, but also believe in democracy. The country elected Boris Johnson and his party unequivocally to lead this country based on their manifesto, their ideology, and their way of doing things. To rant and rave about privatisation, private wealth, private health care, austerity and all the rest of it is fine, but the country knew all that when we went to the polls.

Please indicate where in the Tory manifesto that it outlined what they intended to do in the event of a pandemic. The Tories got elected to 'get brexit done' - if the election was about who would be better at combating a global pandemic the last person to pick would be blundering Boris (with the exception of Trump)

They are currently leading this country as they were mandated to do, and they appear to be following scientific guidance as it is presented to them.

The Tories have no mandate for the measures they are implementing and their failure to implement even basic measures of social distancing - and they are cherry picking the scientific advice - as demonstrate by the massive switch yesterday.

There is no reason why our scientists aren't completely right and the WHO scientists have some of this wrong. There are many variables and many difference to how even say China / HK / South Korea / Taiwan are handling this. You cannot lump them together as one set of similar actions, because they are different.

This is a global pandemic - the virus operates in the same way in every corner of the globe - this has nothing to do with different scientific evidence - the evidence is clear. The only difference is the policies that are pursued and the intent of many right-wing governments to operate in the protection of the market rather than the protection of people. Case in point - Trump has made $50billion available to alleviate the impact of Covid19 on people - and pumped $1.5trillion into the US stock market in order to temporarily halt the crashing of shares - this shows the priorities of the Trump administration.

I don't disagree that testing should be wide spread to help contain but I also don't know whether access to tests is as easy as writing a cheque. Announcement today seems to be we are looking to increase testing.

It costs £1 for each test kit - and as I outlined earlier there is a company in Surrey that has the source materials on hand to make 3.5million kits - and they are waiting for a phone call from the NHS - so far none has been forthcoming. A company in Belfast is making tens of thousands of kits a day - all of them for export - including 30,000 to the Republic on Thursday. as for the increase in testing - effectively Britain has stopped testing - they are only testing people that could need to be hospitalised - no effort to test people who may be having mild to moderate symptoms and no effort to contact trace.

I hope they do implement measures to help workers, those most in need, help businesses survive, but it will be done on the democratic principles for which the government was elected. You and I may not like it, but that is what will happen.

This is nonsense - the Tories have no democratic mandate for any measure they are introducing - and the measures they are introducing (or not) are designed to dis-proportionally help big business - while at the same time they continue to put the boot into welfare recipients.

Churchill, often included as one of our great PMs lost the election directly after the war. Boris Johnson will be defined by this crisis, and the country will hold him and his party to account. Even in victory, the people didn't reward Churchill with another term. Unless Johnson does some of the things you are suggesting, I don't think he'll be forgiven.

You are right - Boris will be defined by this crisis - just like Trump - and both are being found seriously wanting. Of all the countries in Europe, Britain is likely to fall of a cliff in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I never said it was a magic bullet - I said that it was an important part of creating social distancing that will have a significant impact in conjunction with other measures - none of them work on their own, but when on crucial part is missing it can have a major impact.


Wow - oh wow - you do know how this virus is transmitted?


Again wow - and the evidence from those countries that have been more successful in containing the spread of infection demonstrates that school closures are a key part of social distancing.


Please indicate where in the Tory manifesto that it outlined what they intended to do in the event of a pandemic. The Tories got elected to 'get brexit done' - if the election was about who would be better at combating a global pandemic the last person to pick would be blundering Boris (with the exception of Trump)


The Tories have no mandate for the measures they are implementing and their failure to implement even basic measures of social distancing - and they are cherry picking the scientific advice - as demonstrate by the massive switch yesterday.


This is a global pandemic - the virus operates in the same way in every corner of the globe - this has nothing to do with different scientific evidence - the evidence is clear. The only difference is the policies that are pursued and the intent of many right-wing governments to operate in the protection of the market rather than the protection of people. Case in point - Trump has made $50billion available to alleviate the impact of Covid19 on people - and pumped $1.5trillion into the US stock market in order to temporarily halt the crashing of shares - this shows the priorities of the Trump administration.


It costs £1 for each test kit - and as I outlined earlier there is a company in Surrey that has the source materials on hand to make 3.5million kits - and they are waiting for a phone call from the NHS - so far none has been forthcoming. A company in Belfast is making tens of thousands of kits a day - all of them for export - including 30,000 to the Republic on Thursday. as for the increase in testing - effectively Britain has stopped testing - they are only testing people that could need to be hospitalised - no effort to test people who may be having mild to moderate symptoms and no effort to contact trace.


This is nonsense - the Tories have no democratic mandate for any measure they are introducing - and the measures they are introducing (or not) are designed to dis-proportionally help big business - while at the same time they continue to put the boot into welfare recipients.


You are right - Boris will be defined by this crisis - just like Trump - and both are being found seriously wanting. Of all the countries in Europe, Britain is likely to fall of a cliff in the next couple of weeks.

Wow oh wow you really read into things you want to read. The weird thing is, some of it I’m agreeing with you and you’re even agreeing with what I’ve said, but you’re just on a head down path of dispute dispute dispute. I can’t unpick what you’ve said because there is so much you’ve jumped sideways onto. Hard to know where to go from here other than thanking you for taking so much time to reply, reckon you could have halved your writing time if you’d doubled your read and consider time though.

 

[beorhthelm]

There is a factory in Surrey that has enough source materials on site to make 3.5million test kits - yet no order from the NHS - that is the scale of the irresponsibility of the Tory government.

you'll be pleased to know your info is behind the curve, Novacyt has signed initial contract for supplying their PCR tests, after PHE completed trials of the kits.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

you'll be pleased to know your info is behind the curve, Novacyt has signed initial contract for supplying their PCR tests, after PHE completed trials of the kits.

About bloody time

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Wow oh wow you really read into things you want to read. The weird thing is, some of it I’m agreeing with you and you’re even agreeing with what I’ve said, but you’re just on a head down path of dispute dispute dispute. I can’t unpick what you’ve said because there is so much you’ve jumped sideways onto. Hard to know where to go from here other than thanking you for taking so much time to reply, reckon you could have halved your writing time if you’d doubled your read and consider time though.

No BS - you are saying that you agree with stuff and then you are coming out spouting nonsense - like Boris is abiding by scientific evidence when the WHO specifically referenced the failures in the UK.

I have been consistent in this thread trying to cut through all the bs about what Johnson and the Tories are doing and why they are doing it.

 

[Baker lite]

No BS - you are saying that you agree with stuff and then you are coming out spouting nonsense - like Boris is abiding by scientific evidence when the WHO specifically referenced the failures in the UK.

I have been consistent in this thread trying to cut through all the bs about what Johnson and the Tories are doing and why they are doing it.

You have delivered some light hearted relief at this, the most testing of times, bravo sir,bravo.


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[Motogull]

Unless Johnson does some of the things you are suggesting, I don't think he'll be forgiven.

Well, I haven't forgotten his pre-election conduct. All a bit of a laugh wasn't it? The silly fat kunnt has got to act a bit grown up now eh?

 

[Hampster Gull]

No, Sweden are following the same plan as Britain

Yep, spot on, just talked to my brother who lives in Stockholm. Too many listening to Piers Morgan

 

[Sirnormangall]

Schools will be closing eventually anyway. That second spike will happen regardless.

Yes, due to staff absence, some schools are getting close to having less than the minimum number of staff available to remain open - so they will close anyway.

 

[Barham's tash]

They've done nothing, taken no action. Vague suggestions and no firm action. All due to liability and commercial issues no doubt.

Meanwhile the rest of the world (Trump and Johnson excluded of course) are doing something meaningful.

Absolutely no leadership at all.



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Have you even read [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION]’s post?

Jesus Christ. This for once ISNT political points scoring territory with ANY of the policy it’s actually listening to the science.

Close schools/universities and release social distancing at your peril. You just wait until China and Italy think they have this under control and watch for that second wave to hit.

Read the science.


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[Triggaaar]

Social disorder is a given..... it will be a minor trigger

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Why don't they leave it to parental choice whether children go to school or not?

I completely understand the argument that some children of emergency workers need to be cared for. And schools should be kept open for this reason.

But when the parents are able to look after the kids why force them to school?

It doesn’t really matter. Parents are already keeping their children away from school. At local schools up here there is about 50 % attendance and it is declining every day.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

One example of social solidarity from Ireland - on Friday an individual launched a gofundme page to raise €100 to buy pizza for staff in the local hospital - by Monday the page had raised more than €100,000 - this individual, working with 10 volunteers is now buying sandwiches etc from deli shops that were closing and buying pre-prepared meals from restaurants that were closing to supply them to staff in hospitals all over Ireland so that health staff get fed decent food without having to queue and pay in the hospital and have pre-prepared dinners to bring home for themselves and their families. Staff are only taking the meals if they need them to make sure that those who most need help get the benefit.

Of course this is precisely what the government should be doing - getting deli shops and restaurants that are closing because of this crisis going - providing meals to those in self-isolation and to workers in essential industries and services etc. But the government is incapable of this type of planning - instead it is left to individuals to demonstrate how social solidarity works.

Good grief. Perhaps you should practice some social solidarity rather than trying to sow division. I have never blocked anyone on NSC but will do so with you.

 

[heathgate]

Good grief. Perhaps you should practice some social solidarity rather than trying to sow division. I have never blocked anyone on NSC but will do so with you.

I think I will do the same, this is a painful read, born out of paraphrased soundbites, his know it all posts are wearing me down.

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