The Conservative Party: Dead In The Water?

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Game's up terminally for the Tories. There's no conviction there, as is totally transparent. Gordon Brown is a dour, get things done politician, the anti-Blair. The anti-Thatcher too, in that he believes passionately in Society as opposed to sheer naked greed. Much as I will be forever cheering at this state of affairs, it's pretty disgraceful that the Lib-dems are the same old rubbish-third mediocrities they always were. Could have been contenders. Ha. Ha.

 

[simonsimon]

The Irish Brigand Party is now paying the price for the arogance and greed of the Thatcher years.
This is quite ironic considering that the social climbing harpie is now rapidly losing her marbles and is hopefully pissing herself every day, leaving a constant ammonia smell.
The selfish party will self implode after they lose the next election.
GOOD RIDDANCE TO SELFISH RUBBISH.

 

[coventrygull]

The selfish party are in power. Labour follow the same free market policies of the thatcherite tories. Thats why the conservatives are stuffed. They can't compete with a party that is the same as them.

 

[bigc]

The selfish party are in power. Labour follow the same free market policies of the thatcherite tories. Thats why the conservatives are stuffed. They can't compete with a party that is the same as them.

They could....if they did it better.

Which they don't, so they can't.

Cameron seems to be over compensating, with a gimmick at virtually every opportunity. Unfortunately assoicated himself so directly with the gimmicks means that if they fail, it's a black mark against him. I mean, putting on the ballot paper "David Cameron's Conservatives" was just ASKING for trouble.

 

[Gully]

The Tories missed a trick, they should have used the time running up to the transfer of power from Blair to Brown to publish their policies and set an agenda aimed to get them back into Government, they failed miserably. We still don't really know what the Tories stand for, in the meantime Gordon has gone about his duties in a quiet and uncomplicated manner despite facing floods, fire and pestilence in his first few weeks at the helm.

Gordon is now growing in both confidence and reputation, his stock is rising in the opinion polls, he seems likely to repeat what John Major did and go for a fairly early election to gain his own majority...and as happened all those years ago, the major opposition party is in disarray, few people know or understand what they stand for and they are to put it bluntly, unelectable.

 

[clapham_gull]

Shame not to have an effective opposition, we all know what that leads to.

The Tories are obviously in a bit of mess behind the scenes. When you see that odious John Redwood dragged out, then asked whether his highly publicised report on tax cutting would he agreed by the leader, he couldn't actually say so.

Conveniently the leader was on holiday at the time.

I see they've changed their logo again.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I'm glad this thread is attracting so much interest.

I'm fascinated about this notion of "occupying the centre ground". Does this actually mean anything? I think not.

It did, once upon a time when you had extremes in politics, the battle between equality and freedom, but now I don't see any left, centre or right.

The Tories need to get away from this idea of occupying the centre ground because it is a meaningless notion, and get back to the essence of Thatcherism, which was about fixing a sick nation with bold, radical policies.

In order to fix the labour problem she had to break the unions. In order to control inflation she had to raise interest rates and trim public spending. In order to make progress in Northern Ireland she had to stand firm against the terrorists. In order to keep our best technical and business brains she had to shake up the tax system.

I consider that the country is in need of a similar shake-up, but not so much economically as socially, and the Tories need to be reminded that it was her willingness to employ bold policies that turned the situation around.

 

[bigc]

Gordon is now growing in both confidence and reputation, his stock is rising in the opinion polls, he seems likely to repeat what John Major did and go for a fairly early election to gain his own majority...and as happened all those years ago, the major opposition party is in disarray, few people know or understand what they stand for and they are to put it bluntly, unelectable.

Sorry to go off track but Major didn't go for a fairly early election in April 1992, it had been almost a full 5 years, as the previous one had been in June 1987. Many thought he would call it in late 1991, but the polls looked pretty poor for him then and he hung on till pretty much the last moment.

Agree with clapham re: John Redwood, he was one of the worst offenders in the 1990s Tories, in terms of being a trouble maker towards Major and generally being a nasty oily guy, yet he's STILL lurking around. It isn't rocket science you know...

 

[The Large One]

I'm glad this thread is attracting so much interest.

I'm fascinated about this notion of "occupying the centre ground". Does this actually mean anything? I think not.

It did, once upon a time when you had extremes in politics, the battle between equality and freedom, but now I don't see any left, centre or right.

The Tories need to get away from this idea of occupying the centre ground because it is a meaningless notion, and get back to the essence of Thatcherism, which was about fixing a sick nation with bold, radical policies.

In order to fix the labour problem she had to break the unions. In order to control inflation she had to raise interest rates and trim public spending. In order to make progress in Northern Ireland she had to stand firm against the terrorists. In order to keep our best technical and business brains she had to shake up the tax system.

I consider that the country is in need of a similar shake-up, but not so much economically as socially, and the Tories need to be reminded that it was her willingness to employ bold policies that turned the situation around.

Eh? She made things FAR worse in Nothern Ireland, and certainly made no effort towards the peace process. Remember her ridiculous attempt to censor and gag the IRA from British TV? Completely backfired.

She never really got interest rates nor inflation (nor unemployment) under control. Even now people still talk of the 'boom and bust' days.

And I don't recall the Tories - certainly not in Thatcher's time - ever doing anything remotely regarding a social shake-up that was to anyone's benefit. All she did was give the poor a good kicking while spoon-feeding her rich chums.

 

[ditchy]

[4 Now you're not .... that would be terrible. There are already some agricultural companies saying that their workforces are struggling to cope. Building firms and the NHS would need to find more people too.



4..Aligned to a system designed to get people off their backsides and into work rather than claiming benefit thus increasing a labour force rather than relying on an immigrant work force that has to be supported would work .

 

[clapham_gull]

In order to make progress in Northern Ireland she had to stand firm against the terrorists.

When behind the scenes negotiations were taken place ?

 

[London Calling]

Sorry about earlier typos, it’s hard typing with a sick little one around.

Going back to Pavs first point.

Two stats which hit me about 10 years when I first arrived in London, and I still believe they are as true today.

1. 90% of petty crime, muggings, burglaries, stealing are undertaking by drug addicts.
2. In Brixton (and I believe its similar stats with other local areas) 80% of crimes are undertaking by the same 100 people.

1. Target the Police and policies at this group.
2. This can include more Police clamping down on users and suppliers,
3. More drug rehabilitation,
4. More education aimed at this group,
5. Tougher border controls,
6. Tougher sentences on traffickers (actually on all types on traffickers, especially those trafficking migrants and/or women).

A balanced approach here and we might start turning our cities around.

The other stats which appalled me recently was that less than half of the population in London has the math’s ability of an 11 year old and I think English literacy is even worst.

There are also some appalling stats about the level of illiteracy of our prison population and when they do get out their lack of Education and work record, means they are unwanted in the labour market and destined to returning to crime.

We must target this problem and whatever Party must stand up to the Mail etc. We are not going soft on criminals but aiming to achieve a crimeless society, given all people at what ever age, the opportunity of Education and aiming to turn an expensive negative of prison costs to spending the money in a positive manner.

Alas the farting around on our drug policies and its seems that accolades goes to the Party that build the builds the most prisons/

AS you know I am pretty close to the Olympics work, it has stunned me that the media goes wild whether we spend £2/3/4 bn on such a great cultural experience and the regenerating of the east end. The most deprived part of Europe with all of the social problems of the UK concentrated in one place.
When multi billion pound programmes of road building, prison building goes through - unnoticed. £3bn on that road, M4 widening of one lane £2bn, oh that’s OK.

We (the media and the national Politicians) have the wrong priorities I would guess most people will want money spent on:

1. Reducing crime to minimal levels aka Sweden and Denmark levels,
2. Clean streets, good public realm, great and safe parks,
3. Good education across all areas and schools, developing a literate population,
4. Good housing for all,

I believe all of these are interrelated.

 

[Pavilionaire]

TLO, I am by no means a fan of Thatcher, and her final term was downright disastrous and did lead to boom and bust. However, I think it is unfair to say that she never had interest rates or unemployment under control because she totally regenerated the British economy in the early 80s without the assistance of the internet boom that was Blair's good fortune.

You have to remember what a state the country was in when she was elected in 1979 - the country was f***ed. You don't move from that to economic growth without major pain along the way.

And on Northern Ireland I do think that by taking a firm stand with the terrorists she set the tone for things to come under Major.

However, back to LCs point about crime. Defeating the criminals will take money, and this means cutting expenditure elsewhere. If we had not chosen to go in large in the Middle East we'd have the cash for the sort of campaign required to cut crime, i.e. more prisons and prison officers, educational campaign, more police resources, more judges, more CPS.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

<However, I think it is unfair to say that she never had interest rates or unemployment under control because she totally regenerated the British economy in the early 80s without the assistance of the internet boom that was Blair's good fortune.>

Off-topic a bit, but Thatcher's good fortune was the North Sea oil boom, which could be said to be the greatest economic assistance any prime minister has had

 

[The Large One]

<However, I think it is unfair to say that she never had interest rates or unemployment under control because she totally regenerated the British economy in the early 80s without the assistance of the internet boom that was Blair's good fortune.>

Off-topic a bit, but Thatcher's good fortune was the North Sea oil boom, which could be said to be the greatest economic assistance any prime minister has had

That, plus she sold off all of those utilities. Without hocking the family silver, she would have had no chance.

Remember, she won the 1983 General Election on the back of the Falklands War and re-generated British patriotism. Before that, her government was in real trouble with the economy, unemployment, soaring inflation and interest rates, race riots etc. It looked for a time that Michael Foot might be the next Prime Minister, and bear in mind - with the benefit of hindsight - what a mess the Labour Party were at the time.

 

[London Calling]

Unfortunately Blair chosed Iraq? Call call, twat!

 

[Gwylan]

Unfortunately Blair chosed Iraq? Call call, twat!

I thought at the time (and think even more now) that the Conservatives completely cocked it up by not opposing the war - as Ken Clarke and others proposed. They would then have something to beat Labour up with as the government tries to find a way to get out of an unpopular war. As it is, they can't make any political capital out of the mess that the government has got into: what dickheads.

 

[Buzzer]

The Irish Brigand Party is now paying the price for the arogance and greed of the Thatcher years.
This is quite ironic considering that the social climbing harpie is now rapidly losing her marbles and is hopefully pissing herself every day, leaving a constant ammonia smell.
The selfish party will self implode after they lose the next election.
GOOD RIDDANCE TO SELFISH RUBBISH.

blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm so clever calling them Irish Brigands blah blah blah did you read the Daily Star today oh, I know shocking (didn't actually read it but I'm sure it's Thatcher's fault blah blah blah listen brother the tide is turning and capitalism is crumbling all around us blah blah blah yes I know I said that in the 90s and 80s and 70s and 60s and 50s but this time I really mean it blah blah blah.....ad nauseum


Sorry mate, you need the Tory middle classes more than they need you.

and double sorry, they'll still be around when your great-great grandchildren are predicting the fall of capitalism and blaming it on Thatcher.

oh, and triple sorry but Norwich Union no longer do household insurance for that Time Warp you live in.

 

[London Calling]

I thought at the time (and think even more now) that the Conservatives completely cocked it up by not opposing the war - as Ken Clarke and others proposed. They would then have something to beat Labour up with as the government tries to find a way to get out of an unpopular war. As it is, they can't make any political capital out of the mess that the government has got into: what dickheads.

Funny one that. They knew the country was divided. They knew the labour movement if not the Parliamentary Labour Party was divided.
They knew we were not under threat, from what a missile travelling half way around the world, when our satelittes and warplanes had scoured Iraq and had never ever discovered anything of worth?


But I wonder what Labour would have done, if the tables, were reversed?

LC

 

[Pavilionaire]

The Tories big mistake was not having the balls to elect Ken Clarke as leader after Major and getting behind his pro-Europe policy.

A bit like the FA not having the balls to make Brian Clough manager of England.