The Conservative Party: Dead In The Water?

[cannedheat]

I think the same was said about Labour when err donkey jacket took over, the Plymouth fan whos name I don't remember.

 

[The Large One]

I think the same was said about Labour when err donkey jacket took over, the Plymouth fan whos name I don't remember.

Michael Foot.

The point is Labour did sort themselves out. The Tories show no signs of doing so thus far.

 

[Sorrel]

Do you think that the Conservative Party is finished?

I see Gordon Brown now has a 10-point lead over David Cameron and a snap election is a distinct possibility. The Post-Major years have seen Hague, Duncan-Smith, Howard and now Cameron struggle to unite the party and come up with new ideas to rival Labour.

Reading the "Reclaim the streets" thread you realise that politicians in this country of all political persuasions lack to balls to get to grips with the social ills that pervade our society.

The Tories are still split on the big issues like Europe and the Euro, immigration, law and order and I wonder whether they'll ever be a force again.

Just what ARE David Cameron's policies? Are they any different to those of Blair?

It annoys me so much because I reckon if the Tories had the balls and tenacity to come up with some radical policies they'd walk the next election, for example:

1. Tougher sentences for criminals and build more prisons, fines on negligent parents for anti-social behaviour of their kids
2. Overhauling an over-complicated tax system with a flat rate of tax and reform of the benefits/tax credits system
3. A structured withdrawal from Afghanistan / Iraq
4. Proper immigration controls and a freeze on all immigration for 2 years.
5. A foreign policy that works closer with the EU and doesn't kow-tow to the States.
6. Legalisation of some drugs, proper state-funded rehab and education programmes and adoption of best-practice from countries like Holland, Spain etc.

So what's stopping them grasping the nettle?

I've been wondering exactly the same thing recently. They should be able to walk the election with the list you present. But they don't seem capable to even present it, let alone do anything.

 

[Sorrel]

And seeing as others have: here are my opinions on the ideas:

1: I would gladly pay more tax if the anti-social scum are put inside for a long time. It's a fair price to pay.

2: Would the conservatives dare tax higher income earners more? Because that is what is needed.

3: We need to leave Iraq right now. It seems to me we're only staying on as target practice these days. Afghanistan I'm less sure about.

4: I'm all for more control, but EU migration is here to stay, and that's the majority of movement these days.

5: Less following of the current American adminstration: good idea. But in five years foreign policy might be better in the USA than Europe, so I think we need to have independence from both (in this; I certainly don't want to leave the EU).

6: Reform the drugs laws properly - yes please.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

the war aside Labour have done a superb job turning this country round, everyone likes to knock the government but most people recognise deep down what they have done for the UK.

I don't think they turned this country round as such. The trend was set by Major in the latter years of the premiership. I wouldn't say they have done a superb job at all. They have successes, but also many failings. Plus, I am not sure the war can be written off as "Apart from the war..."

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

Do people really believe that increasing taxes on the rich and higher earners will be beneficial? Look at France, they tax high earners much higher than we do and the cream of their talent comes to the UK. Yeah you might get a few more bucks for a year or two but you'll wreck the economy in the process.

The parties are very tight together but I think there is one overriding difference.

Labour believes that the state should help the citizens of its countries as much as possible, while the Conservatives believes people should be left alone to live their own lives with as little interference as possible.

 

[Sorrel]

Do people really believe that increasing taxes on the rich and higher earners will be beneficial? Look at France, they tax high earners much higher than we do and the cream of their talent comes to the UK. Yeah you might get a few more bucks for a year or two but you'll wreck the economy in the process.

The parties are very tight together but I think there is one overriding difference.

Labour believes that the state should help the citizens of its countries as much as possible, while the Conservatives believes people should be left alone to live their own lives with as little interference as possible.

What really needs to happen is to tax those who get away without paying it, or manage to avoid paying what they morally should. It doesn't have to be high earners, but it probably is them.

In the last fifty years, the tax burden on low to middle income people has risen constantly: it's this we need to reduce.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

What really needs to happen is to tax those who get away without paying it, or manage to avoid paying what they morally should. It doesn't have to be high earners, but it probably is them.

In the last fifty years, the tax burden on low to middle income people has risen constantly: it's this we need to reduce.

Some data on that would be interesting. Not disagreeing with it, would just be interested in seeing the data.

 

[Sorrel]

Some data on that would be interesting. Not disagreeing with it, would just be interested in seeing the data.

There's some in "The Welfare State We're In" : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Welfare-State-Were-James-Bartholomew/dp/1842751611/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/203-6983548-6115924?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187108342&sr=8-1

Although you won't get a balanced discussion from the book (it wants to dismantle the welfare state completely), I think the figures in it are correct. They're certainly sourced.

 

[Tooting Gull]

While they are not necessarily all policies I would favour, like Pavilionaire I can't see why they aren't making bold, courageous policy initiative moves on some of these issues.

The fact remains that a lot of people are fundamentally selfish in this country, which means a Conservative manifesto that presses the right buttons should always have a chance. At the moment, that is a distant dream.

Some innovative thinking on 'untouchable' issues that people have traditionally been too scared to put their heads above the parapet on - like gun crime, drugs, immigration, tax, pensions, and now the housing shortgage - are essential.

Personally I'm not too fussed if the Conservatives never get in again, but I want to see them get their act together because if they don't, this Labour government won't feel challenged and will fall into same sort of complacent torpor as the 1990s Tories.

 

[Simster]

I agree that we need to see some data. I'd be interested to see how the flat rate of tax idea pans out in Eastern Europe. It seems to me that all the tax laws are so complex in most western countries that there are tons of loopholes that can be exploited. A flat and matching rate of corp tax and income tax, get shot of NI and VAT only on luxury items would be cheaper to collect and potentially more lucrative (if it means tax avoidance is minimised)

 

[Sorrel]

I agree that we need to see some data. I'd be interested to see how the flat rate of tax idea pans out in Eastern Europe.

Has that happened then? I remember hearing about it quite a few years ago, but I've not heard anything recently. It certainly hasn't put their standard of living up with ours.

 

[withdeanwombat]

Dead in the water will do nicely.

In fact,dead anywhere will be good.

 

[Buzzer]

To be honest, as a Tory I will carry on voting for them but don't care much for Cameron. I don't know where he stands on a lot of things and those that I do know, I disagree on such as grammar schools.

 

[sten_super]

Some data on that would be interesting. Not disagreeing with it, would just be interested in seeing the data.

The inherent problem with the welfare state is that it creates extremely high marginal tax rates for low earners. The more you increase benefits, the higher the 'tax' on getting a job becomes, and the more of a disincentive to work there is.

I actually agree with the sentiment of that book; the welfare state is now a serious problem that I doubt any political party (certainly any current party) will ever be able to deal with.

Loopholes are left in the tax laws deliberately, I'm sure. This means that the upper classes will vote for parties that allow the loopholes, while everyone else votes for them because they believe that the upper classes are paying more tax than they actually are.

 

[glasfryn]

Dead in the water will do nicely.

In fact,dead anywhere will be good.

 

[London Calling]

Do people really believe that increasing taxes on the rich and higher earners will be beneficial? Look at France, they tax high earners much higher than we do and the cream of their talent comes to the UK. Yeah you might get a few more bucks for a year or two but you'll wreck the economy in the process.

The parties are very tight together but I think there is one overriding difference.

Labour believes that the state should help the citizens of its countries as much as possible, while the Conservatives believes people should be left alone to live their own lives with as little interference as possible.

It is about getting a equitable balance sheet. VAT is a regressive tax, it hits the poor the hardest. I would prefer 1% cut of that, with the tax lost being met by Income Tax.

To come back to Pavionaire original post, the best ways to simplify the tax system for people, is to have income tax and vat. Instead of all of the hidden taxes.

The highest earners would obviously pay the most tax and we again could have a tax system based on redistribution.

Instead we have a very regressive tax system.

I believe and countries committed to distributive tax system show, that you end up with a more balanced society.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

To be honest, as a Tory I will carry on voting for them but don't care much for Cameron. I don't know where he stands on a lot of things and those that I do know, I disagree on such as grammar schools.

I think that's a major weakness with Cameron, and one that's let Deadwood in with his rather unpopular views. There's a very good article on CIF by Polly Toynbee of all people, which analyses Camerons problems very well and basically repeats what several posters have said, he can't win if he allows the party to move too far from the centre.

 

[ridda]

I hope the tories are dead forever i'll even help to dig the grave.

 

[London Calling]

tbo i want one more labpur govt, then lets rid of this system, where a party getting 40% of the vote can hold a large majority in parliament, lets get over to proportional reprentation and i bet we get better ideas, policies and politicians more interested in the electorate, especially areas where you could a rossette on a donkey for the party to win