[Politics] The Breakthrough Party.

[beorhthelm]

The main problem with this idea is the speed that we are assuming they want to bring it in.

I haven't read the manifesto for this party but perhaps the £16 figure is not an immediate hike and more a medium term goal with a plan of how to achieve it without causing issue.

Essentially surely a living wage is a reasonable goal for a political party. There may be some discussion about how to get there but as a goal it seems sensible.

Do any other parties have this as a goal? I am guessing the Tories don't.

the living wage idea is for those that ignore the economics. not everyone's living costs are the same, so how can there be a baseline? then not all business can sustain the higher cost. then there's the inflation effect that means no sooner you have it, it needs to rise. it's goal for the economy in aggregate to attain better living standards, with better wages. forcing through state direction will not work, why no country does it (even the socialists). see also universal basic income.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

the discussion isnt about a minimum wage in principle. its about >50% increase immediately. if a business major expenditure increases 50%, what do you suppose happens to the business?
assuming others will take up the slack is very neoliberal view, they will, but it will take time.

I said they pay or go bust. Others who can pay will follow.

That's only part of the equation. Some claw back at the top would be nice.

However I appreciate this is socialism and nobody wants that. So let the poor work harder.

At the end of the days, the voters will out.

My personal favourite is steady-eddie Sir steer calmer. Nothing too flash, nothing that will upset the rich sufficiently they may do what was threatened in the 70s (a right wing coup). Gently leftwards. But sadly it won't be appreciated and the tories will then get back in, promising Freedom. Lower Taxes and, er, that's it.

That's parliamentary democracy. I quite like it. Nobody to blame but our sorry selves.

 

[jcdenton08]

I said they pay or go bust. Others who can pay will follow.

That's only part of the equation. Some claw back at the top would be nice.

However I appreciate this is socialism and nobody wants that. So let the poor work harder.

At the end of the days, the voters will out.

My personal favourite is steady-eddie Sir steer calmer. Nothing too flash, nothing that will upset the rich sufficiently they may do what was threatened in the 70s (a right wing coup). Gently leftwards. But sadly it won't be appreciated and the tories will then get back in, promising Freedom. Lower Taxes and, er, that's it.

That's parliamentary democracy. I quite like it. Nobody to blame but our sorry selves.

This is as far left as I can remember you posting, Harry. Not a criticism, just an observation.

 

[BadFish]

seems like an immediate pledge

"Increase the minimum wage to a true living wage of £16, regardless of age or type of employment."

https://breakthroughparty.org.uk/policy/work/

also

"Introduce a maximum wage for companies, capping pay (including bonuses) at 20 times the salary of the lowest paid worker."

Yeah it does, not very well thought out. Or at least that isn't communicated on the website.

 

[Weststander]

Sorry, not following. Are you in favour of a minimum wage, and in favour of increasing it or not, not?

I am in favour. The companies that can't afford it can then go bust, and more efficient companies that can afford it can take up the slack.

I'm not being entirely facetious here.

I’m pro NMW and hopefully living wage.

The question was specifically a minimum wage of £16ph (£29k salary). I’ve literally seen the accounts for hundreds of tiny businesses, remember the nation of shopkeepers? But also cafes, plant nurseries, often facing crippling rent and rates. Profits are enough with luck to chisel out an okay income, but the owners don’t drive away in new cars to lovely addresses. They like being their own boss. Without them, big business would rule.

They often employ one or two staff. Millions work for tiny businesses. Paying £16ph is a totally different kettle of fish for them, than say Amazon, Tescos, O2.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This is as far left as I can remember you posting, Harry. Not a criticism, just an observation.

Oh, my high water mark is Marxism. To each, from each, etc. However, I live in some sort of real world, so a nudge to the left is all I can hope for.

However....consider the massive spaff of money during Covid. All in a day's work according to - yes! Johnson. No harm to the economy. None at all.

So paying our lowest earners a bit more is chicken feed.

And as I said, if some can't afford to pay, new businesses will step in. It is the way of things. My local Woolies became a Poundland, now something else. The Beatles broke up. But Elton John rose up. Rock and Roll died. But who cares when you have New Music.

Starmer will bimble just to get in. Hopefully he will do things when he is in.

I speak from a place of relative comfort and security so for me it is all about being angry about those who are being f***ed over.

 

[pastafarian]

Yeah it does, not very well thought out. Or at least that isn't communicated on the website.

Yeah it does, not very well thought out. Or at least that isn't communicated on the website.

The current minimum wage rates are:

Under 18 - £5.28
18 to 20 - £7.49
21 to 22 - £10.18
23 and over - £10.42

An immediate raise to £16 “regardless of age” would be a huge shock to businesses.

Im all for it increasing but gradually each year and not sudden huge increases.
Those advocating that the businesses that cant afford it can simply go bust are living on a different planet and supporting putting people out of work.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’m pro NMW and hopefully living wage.

The question was specifically a minimum wage of £16ph (£29k salary). I’ve literally seen the accounts for hundreds of tiny businesses, remember the nation of shopkeepers? But also cafes, plant nurseries, often facing crippling rent and rates. Profits are enough with luck to chisel out an okay income, but the owners don’t drive away in new cars to lovely addresses. They like being their own boss. Without them, big business would rule.

They often employ one or two staff. Millions work for tiny businesses. Paying £16ph is a totally different kettle of fish for them, than say Amazon, Tescos, O2.

Indeed.

So perhaps £16 is too much.

I charge £150 when consulting. Or £1000 a day. Plus first class flights if an overseas pow wow is required.

There is money out there....

Not sure what the answer is but maybe some push and shove isn't so silly?

 

[jcdenton08]

Oh, my high water mark is Marxism. To each, from each, etc. However, I live in some sort of real world, so a nudge to the left is all I can hope for.

However....consider the massive spaff of money during Covid. All in a day's work according to - yes! Johnson. No harm to the economy. None at all.

So paying our lowest earners a bit more is chicken feed.

And as I said, if some can't afford to pay, new businesses will step in. It is the way of things. My local Woolies became a Poundland, now something else. The Beatles broke up. But Elton John rose up. Rock and Roll died. But who cares when you have New Music.

Starmer will bimble just to get in. Hopefully he will do things when he is in.

I speak from a place of relative comfort and security so for me it is all about being angry about those who are being f***ed over.

Makes sense. But leave my Elton alone…

 

[dsr-burnley]

In order to receive access to a food bank a person has to have an assessment which will include all the above criteria and more.

It’s a myth that benefits cover everything. For example if the government decide that your private rented accommodation is worth £500 a month but your landlord decides it’s worth £750, there’s £250 you have to find each month.

I think it’s all covered in one payment on UC these days .

A few years ago when I had to use benefits it was all separate and I was actually paid more housing benefit than I paid in rent. The benefits office told me to keep the difference or split it with my landlord!

Those days are well and truly over. Which is good but it seems to have now swing the other way.

Anyway, sorry, I’ve got off the point .

Access to food banks is means tested and I imagine it’s rather strict. Tory’s will be trying to exclude as many as possible to keep stats low.
So I’m imagining you have it be in pretty dire straits before the government gives you access to food.

Not all food banks are government run or government licensed. The one at my church certainly isn't, and they don't means test.

 

[BadFish]

The current minimum wage rates are:

Under 18 - £5.28
18 to 20 - £7.49
21 to 22 - £10.18
23 and over - £10.42

An immediate raise to £16 “regardless of age” would be a huge shock to businesses.

Im all for it increasing but gradually each year and not sudden huge increases.
Those advocating that the businesses that cant afford it can simply go bust are living on a different planet and supporting putting people out of work.

Agreed.

Question is is the living wage/higher minimum wage increase in anyone else's manifesto?

 

[The Clamp]

Not all food banks are government run or government licensed. The one at my church certainly isn't, and they don't means test.

Ah. Didn’t realise that. Fair play.

 

[BadFish]

Indeed.

So perhaps £16 is too much.

I charge £150 when consulting. Or £1000 a day. Plus first class flights if an overseas pow wow is required.

There is money out there....

Not sure what the answer is but maybe some push and shove isn't so silly?

Yes I think something needs to be done, as you say the money is out there. But I disagree with your idea of hiking the rate and letting everyone sort it out, sounds like a chaotic and expensive way of sorting it.

Trouble is though I am not sure if there is any real push to increase wages for the lowest paid.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yes I think something needs to be done, as you say the money is out there. But I disagree with your idea of hiking the rate and letting everyone sort it out, sounds like a chaotic and expensive way of sorting it.

Trouble is though I am not sure if there is any real push to increase wages for the lowest paid.

Indeed. Do something or do nothing.

My money is on nothing will be done.

Which will, ironically, probably save me money.

I wonder what those who are horribly short of money think? And also, I wonder how they may vote. Sadly, again, it is likely to be carelessly.

 

[pastafarian]

Agreed.

Question is is the living wage/higher minimum wage increase in anyone else's manifesto?

The last Tory manifesto said by 2024

we announced an increase in the National Living Wage to two thirds of average earnings, currently forecast at £10.50 an hour, and widened its reach to everyone over 21. That means an average pay rise of £4,000 per year for four million people by 2024.

Each of the annual rises suggests the next rise in April 2024 will achieve that rate
no idea if forecasts in 2019 match current forecasts given the mad world since covid
guess we need to wait for the next election and manifestos for more info

 

[BadFish]

The last Tory manifesto said by 2024

we announced an increase in the National Living Wage to two thirds of average earnings, currently forecast at £10.50 an hour, and widened its reach to everyone over 21. That means an average pay rise of £4,000 per year for four million people by 2024.

Each of the annual rises suggests the next rise in April 2024 will achieve that rate
no idea if forecasts in 2019 match current forecasts given the mad world since covid
guess we need to wait for the next election and manifestos for more info

Not quite the £16 mark either. Minimum wage rather than living wage.

 

[pastafarian]

Not quite the £16 mark either. Minimum wage rather than living wage.

just found this as a projection and no not a £16 projection (is such a large increase projection , short term useful?)


From 1 April 2023, all rates of the National Minimum Wage, including the National Living Wage, increase. These increases will benefit millions of low-paid workers. This report by the Low Pay Commission looks at the effects of the incoming rates and current projections for the National Living Wage in 2024 and beyond.

The report sets out the LPC’s latest projections for the NLW rate required in 2024 to reach the target of two-thirds of median earnings. Our central estimate of the on-course rate of the NLW for 2024 is £11.16, within a range of £10.90 to £11.43.

The National Minimum Wage in 2023

This report by the Low Pay Commission marks the increase in all rates of the National Minimum Wage in April 2023 and looks ahead to rates for 2024 and beyond.

www.gov.uk

 

[Blue3]

That’s a £29k salary.

In France it’s (the GBP equivalent) £17.6k, Netherlands £20k, Spain £12k, Italy nil. There must be a reason why this mix of socialist and centre right governments don’t set their at €33.7k.

Should an unskilled or semi skilled 22 year old be guaranteed a £29k salary, should someone of any age changing vocations with no skill set yet receive that salary, what about small employers such as cafes making minuscule profits/losses be required to pay £16ph to all employees?

But £29k does sound right as a minimum imho for someone very experienced in their roles working for employers not on the breadline. It’ll take years to get there though.

The problem we currently have with the minimum wage it inadvertently became the maximum wage it at a stroke ended any opportunity to break free .
We currently measure the worth of an individual based upon the financial return of their labour as such a desk job in the city earns many thousands more than the hospital cleaner or delivery driver.
We are told those on minimum wage will benefit from the trickle down and indeed that’s partly true the city desk job earner pays taxes and will buy goods and services that may include a hospital visit or delivery of goods.
The weakness of this system is that it doesn’t fairly ensure the combined efforts of all are shared equally as it tends to devalue work that does not directly meet the financial return criteria.
Do we truly valued the worth these individuals undertake, instead should we not have a better way of valuing work undertaken and the rewards earned to ensure a more balanced distribution of the wealth

 

[Randy McNob]

Yes I think something needs to be done, as you say the money is out there. But I disagree with your idea of hiking the rate and letting everyone sort it out, sounds like a chaotic and expensive way of sorting it.

Trouble is though I am not sure if there is any real push to increase wages for the lowest paid.

They could offset it by lowering corporation tax and / or business rates?

If you increase wages you increase the tax take, more people will move into higher bands and less people will be dependent on benefit top ups.

People at the bottom recycle all money back into the economy which will boost growth and same businesses will benefit

Should all level out

 

[Randy McNob]

Reading a book about left wing politics at the moment and was reminded of how many incarnations it has. Corbyn (and I'd imagine this party) are the "new left" somewhat a product of 1960s student politics even if they don't know it. They didn't invent socialism only somewhat redefined it.

Always amuses me that people believe socialism is the work of the devil and never works yet here we are talking government intervention to support people financialy mainly because capitalism doesn't work.

I think we've reached a watershed moment where 40-50 years of Thatcherite neo-liberal governence is a failed project and in fact Socialism does work as it has to bail out the former