[Politics] The Breakthrough Party.

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm pretty sure that would lead to the owners/controllers of said multinational rigging the political system and immediately getting rid of all those laws.

I wasn't serious about advocating a multinational monoculture. But in the context I elaborated (where the multinational was willing and able to pay a decent minimum wage) what would be the problem?

I am obviously neither in favour of nor anticipate that having seat-of-the-pants exploitative care home owners and the like going bust and taken over by people willing and able to pay a higher minimum wage will lead to multinationals taking over and destroying our way of life.

Imagine a multinational comes in and buys some failing care homes. They would be subject to British laws. But actually, no. I said that I think that care homes and schools should be nationalized. Part of state provision. Like it was. Other low paid industry in the private sector is a different matter. It is hard to see how anything other than the free market can operate there, and perhaps there should be no minimum wage at all in the wider private sector. If people don't like the wages offered they can get on their bike and find another job. Or maybe the minimum wage should just be kept low, raised only if we have a National Strike. All sounds mad doesn't it? Perhaps Labour will have clever answers....

So, a few simple things could be done. Nationalize all heath and education would be a start However, there is no wider clamour for this so it won't happen. Where does that leave us? If sensible people like you are afraid of a minimum wage increase in case companies go bust and are bought out by multinationals, we are stuffed. If nobody wants to vote for change (I mean Labour rather than nutters), then we won't get change. In fact I'm not sure Labour will do anything radical anyway.

So we may as well stick with the devil we know and vote conservative. Millions will.

 

[clapham_gull]

Always amuses me that people believe socialism is the work of the devil and never works yet here we are talking government intervention to support people financialy mainly because capitalism doesn't work.

I think we've reached a watershed moment where 40-50 years of Thatcherite neo-liberal governence is a failed project and in fact Socialism does work as it has to bail out the former

The problem the left has had is that it has moved away from fighting economic injustice and got itself concerned with numerous social injustice and identity issues many of which are overseas. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but it has somewhat alienated a proportion of its vote at home.

Even if come from a working class background (Starmer, Streeting) expect a bashing from the middle class New Left intellectuals on Twitter if you don't follow the common room line.

 

[clapham_gull]

I imagine it's part of the modern trend by certain people of dismissing any leftwing idea by shouting antisemitism.

Unless @aolstudios has evidence that this party or any of its leaders are anti-jew.

Antisemitism in the left isn't just a modern trend and until the New Left acknowledges that, the accusations will continue.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

Companies that can afford to pay a decent minimum wage taking over small companies that cannot?

What's wrong with that?

I'd be happy if all the industries were owned by one multinational if we had laws that ensured the workers were paid properly and treated properly. It can't be that difficult.

If you're happy with the state of the high street now, then so be it. We need more small retailers, keeping money in local communities, not to big companies paying massive profits to shareholders overseas.

 

[Bakero]

Antisemitism in the left isn't just a modern trend and until the New Left acknowledges that, the accusations will continue.

I didn't say antisemitism was a modern trend nor deny any antisemitism. What I've noticed in recent years though is a habit of trying to drown out any progressive ideas with accusations of antisemitism.

 

[Machiavelli]

The problem the left has had is that it has moved away from fighting economic injustice and got itself concerned with numerous social injustice and identity issues many of which are overseas. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but it has somewhat alienated a proportion of its vote at home.

Even if come from a working class background (Starmer, Streeting) expect a bashing from the middle class New Left intellectuals on Twitter if you don't follow the common room line.

I agree with some of what you're saying here.
But who was it that moved away from fighting economic injustice? Tony Blair, that extremist of the centre.
He's by no means alone in that and, yes, the left itself has spent too much time doing one of two things: insisting that some bloke with a beard had all the answers 150 years ago on economics; or not talking about economics, and concentrating on identity issues.
In the past decade or two, on the other hand, there have been some brilliant alternative proposals to the mire that we're in. Just to name four: Kate Raworth, Thomas Piketty, Marianna Mazacutto, Tim Jackson.
The problem for Starmer and Streeting is that if they continue with the extremism of the centre that Blair pioneered, the sh!t will continue to mount up, and further disillusionment and easy sidetracking will crank up.

 

[Machiavelli]

I didn't say antisemitism was a modern trend nor deny any antisemitism. What I've noticed in recent years though is a habit of trying to drown out any progressive ideas with accusations of antisemitism.

Yup. Thank you for saying this. And I've also noticed that those that are so vigorous at pursuing antisemitism tend to be less vigorous at pursuing Islamophobia.

 

[BadFish]

Antisemitism in the left isn't just a modern trend and until the New Left acknowledges that, the accusations will continue.

So this group we are discussing have been involved in anti-Semitism?

Or are we just tarring everyone and anyone on the left with anti-semitism.

Seems like a weird accusation to add into this discussion about minimum wage.

 

[BadFish]

Yup. Thank you for saying this. And I've also noticed that those that are so vigorous at pursuing antisemitism tend to be less vigorous at pursuing Islamophobia.

...

 

[Randy McNob]

it may be viable with fewer hours, fewer staff. depends on the level of minimum wage, and so many other factors you dont know about that you cant make such a sweeping statement.

What I meant was if your income cannot cover the costs / overheads then you don't have a business. Staff wages shouldn't subsidise a failing business model, it's not sustainable

 

[clapham_gull]

So this group we are discussing have been involved in anti-Semitism?

Or are we just tarring everyone and anyone on the left with anti-semitism.

Seems like a weird accusation to add into this discussion about minimum wage.

No I clearly didn't say that at all. I was responding to the post that it was a modern trend, it very much isn't.

 

[BadFish]

No I clearly didn't say that at all. I was responding to the post that it was a modern trend, it very much isn't.

He clearly wasn't saying anti-Semitism is a modern trend. You might want to reread the post.

 

[clapham_gull]

But who was it that moved away from fighting economic injustice? Tony Blair, that extremist of the centre.

The left is a very broad church, not helped by some thinking a particularly brand is more pure than the other.

What those who support Corbyn's left fail to acknowledge is that his brand of "left" is relatively new and somewhat alien to many in traditional working class communities.

They aren't interested in student politics and neither is the wider general public.

 

[Bakero]

The left is a very broad church, not helped by some thinking a particularly brand is more pure than the other.

What those who support Corbyn's left fail to acknowledge is that his brand of "left" is relatively new and somewhat alien to many in traditional working class communities.

They aren't interested in student politics and neither is the wider general public.

What are taking about, CG? @aolstudios tried to derail the thread by saying we can't 4aise the minimum wage because antisemitism. Seems like it's mission accomplished as far as he's concerned.

 

[clapham_gull]

He clearly wasn't saying anti-Semitism is a modern trend. You might want to reread the post.

I read it. Accusations of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Semitism itself have been an issue on the left for decades. It isn't a modern trend to accuse them of it, whatever the motivation. It works as an attack because just like the Tories being accused of corruption and racism, there is an element of truth in it I'm afraid.

The problem the left has is not how wide spread it is (it isn't), but how entrenched it is where it exists. I probably agree with 90% of what Corbyn believe in, but he and a number of his comrades have such a blind spot to it he has to be judged by that I'm afraid.

 

[keaton]

What I meant was if your income cannot cover the costs / overheads then you don't have a business. Staff wages shouldn't subsidise a failing business model, it's not sustainable

Yes but businesses and employers have been hit by the increased costs and price rises as well so what was affordable perviously is no longer.
It would be better rather than hugely increasing the minimum wage ( and presumably stuffing all those on any benefits) a ruling party could tackle rent, inflation, food, energy and public transport prices, etc

 

[clapham_gull]

What are taking about, CG? @aolstudios tried to derail the thread by saying we can't 4aise the minimum wage because antisemitism. Seems like it's mission accomplished as far as he's concerned.

But that's clearly nonsense and the minimum wage should be increased and the utilities nationalised.

However it only takes a few clicks on their website to see their support for the BDS movement and withdrawing all financial support from Israel.

Now whatever your position on either of the above (and neither are intrinsically anti-Semitic) , such concerns are not the concerns of the wider general public (or the traditional working class) but where Corbyn's brand of "socialism" was taken in the 1960s.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I think all 4 "manifesto" points on the leaflet are morally right and represent sound policy.

Nationalisation, clearly needs to take place over a period of time. But the performance of key utilities has been so lamentable that I support new public bodies to be created to run these more effectively.

The £16 minimum wage is the most eye catching. I personally don't believe it would cause businesses to collapse. Costs will rise, but people will have more money to pay for goods and services. It will certainly be inflationary, but I would take rampant inflation over rampant inequality every day of the week.

I believe there is widespread support for all the measures on the leaflet. If not for the word socialism

 

[beorhthelm]

What I meant was if your income cannot cover the costs / overheads then you don't have a business. Staff wages shouldn't subsidise a failing business model, it's not sustainable

it usually isnt sustainable and business go bust or reduce staff to adjust. you're supporting the argument that a substantial rise in minimum wage will lead to fewer jobs and businesses closing.

 

[Bakero]

But that's clearly nonsense and the minimum wage should be increased and the utilities nationalised.

However it only takes a few clicks on their website to see their support for the BDS movement and withdrawing all financial support from Israel.

Now whatever your position on either of the above (and neither are intrinsically anti-Semitic) , such concerns are not the concerns of the wider general public (or the traditional working class) but where Corbyn's brand of "socialism" was taken in the 1960s.

OK, so there was a scintilla of sense to his post. I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of discussing whether support for BDS is akin to antisemitism. However, I do notice the Breakthrough Party site also advocates withdrawing financial support for Saudi Arabia yet no one is accusing them of islamophobia.