[Politics] The Breakthrough Party.

[Bakero]

That’s a £29k salary.

In France it’s (the GBP equivalent) £17.6k, Netherlands £20k, Spain £12k, Italy nil. There must be a reason why this mix of socialist and centre right governments don’t set their at €33.7k

In Spain it's actually closer to 13k, which doesn't sound like a lot but cost of living is so much lower.

Average rent in London is apparently between 2 and 2.5k a month. In Madrid, it's less than half that. Monthly transport in Madrid is about 50 euros, which wouldn't even get you a month on London.

Then factor in things like eating out (breakfast with a coffee in Spain 2 or 3 euros, lunch with a beer 15 euros, a few beers and tapas 10/15 euros) and it's clearly easier to live comfortably in Spain on a low salary. Though Madrid would be a struggle on minimum wage.

Obviously, in both countries costs are lower outside the capital. In a small town here a little over a grand a month is more than sufficient to live a decent life. I'm not sure that's the case in the UK.

Anyway, I think the bigger issue is job security. If someone's getting 40 hours a week at £10.42, they're not doing too badly as long as they're in an area with affordable rent (not sure how many such areas exist). However, there are about a million people on zero hour contracts. Then there's the issue of sick pay.

 

[el punal]

I’m sure they’re looking to gain momentum.

 

[keaton]

Sorry, not following. Are you in favour of a minimum wage, and in favour of increasing it or not, not?

I am in favour. The companies that can't afford it can then go bust, and more efficient companies that can afford it can take up the slack.

I'm not being entirely facetious here.

I look forward to hugely unsafe childcare and schools with 150 in a class and only in town centres

 

[Javeaseagull]

Ever since the minimum wage was introduced employers have said they can’t pay it. Every time it is increased employers have said they can’t pay it. Funny that.

 

[Machiavelli]

I too am an economics numpty but theoretically does this mean that if a company acan find away to increase wages by cutting costs elsewhere then inflation remains unaffected?

My thinking here is the gap between CEO salary and worker wages. Obviously not so relevant for smaller companies but surely if this gap was closed in larger companies it means more cash on the hips for more workers, this means more money going back into the economy so the smaller companies can increase wages too?

Is it as simple as trying to redirect the money that is sitting in the Cayman islands etc back into the economy through the workers?

As to your first point, yes. The one thing is balancing the other, so there's no pumping extra money into the economy to impact inflation.
Broadly, and this is a separate/distinct point, redistributing money will have a positive effect on the economy (it'll lead to more growth -- note, it's not growth that is causing inflation at the moment, as we're living in a stagflationary regime, and a longer term low growth period) because it'll get spent (because most would like to spend more money as they're cutting back on most things). We have 30+ years of evidence of this from the end of WW2, when the economy grew at a fast rate, inequality was substantially reduced, and socioeconomic mobility increased.
I still think the best at explaining things is Piketty, although he's dull. Despite that, he's 'blueprint for a participatory socialism' is very persuasive to get us out of the mire we're in.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I look forward to hugely unsafe childcare and schools with 150 in a class and only in town centres

I must be getting old. I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Why would an increase in the minimum wage make childcare unsafe? Are you suggesting that childcare is safe presently because it employs staff on minimum wage, and if minimum wage is increased childcare companies will go bust? To be replaced by unsafe childcare? Unsafe because.....illegal/cash in hand? Hmmmm....

Near where I live is a deconsecrated church. The main building is now a swish private home. The large community centre, adjacent, was bought a few years ago by....a nursery! Literally across the road was a large pub. Two years ago it was sold and converted into.....a nursery! Crikey, rather than child care being on its uppers and under threat by fears of minimum wage increases, it looks to me rather like the care home 'industry' - on the up and very profitable.

I really must have misunderstood your post - happy to be 'schooled' by your elaboration

 

[aolstudios]

They hate Jews. Hopefully you'd have a problem with that

 

[Machiavelli]

The main problem with this idea is the speed that we are assuming they want to bring it in.

I haven't read the manifesto for this party but perhaps the £16 figure is not an immediate hike and more a medium term goal with a plan of how to achieve it without causing issue.

Essentially surely a living wage is a reasonable goal for a political party. There may be some discussion about how to get there but as a goal it seems sensible.

Do any other parties have this as a goal? I am guessing the Tories don't.

You might have gathered that I'm no fan of the Tories
That said, the minimum wage has increased at a decent rate in the past c8 years. The problem is that it's not increasing as fast as overall inflation, and even more of the basics that those on more modest incomes depend upon (@Weststander has made this point in more detail).
In terms of Labour, they bounce between more radical policies and reining those back through demonstrating their fiscal responsibility. They might be a little different in power, but we'll have to wait and see on that front. As @Harry Wilson's tackle ackle will tell you, the only options in terms of forming the next government is between Labour and the Tories.

 

[BadFish]

They hate Jews. Hopefully you'd have a problem with that

The breakthrough Party? What is this a reference to?

 

[keaton]

I must be getting old. I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Why would an increase in the minimum wage make childcare unsafe? Are you suggesting that childcare is safe presently because it employs staff on minimum wage, and if minimum wage is increased childcare companies will go bust? To be replaced by unsafe childcare? Unsafe because.....illegal/cash in hand? Hmmmm....

Near where I live is a deconsecrated church. The main building is now a swish private home. The large community centre, adjacent, was bought a few years ago by....a nursery! Literally across the road was a large pub. Two years ago it was sold and converted into.....a nursery! Crikey, rather than child care being on its uppers and under threat by fears of minimum wage increases, it looks to me rather like the care home 'industry' - on the up and very profitable.

I really must have misunderstood your post - happy to be 'schooled' by your elaboration

Nurseries and schools are under huge pressure already financially. If they have to give all staff a 50%ish pay rise they'd be free unless they change the number of children they could look after. I'm sure they'd all like to give staff more money but where it will come from is an issue. If you don't give the rest of workers a big pay increase at the same time we will lose even more teachers as they likely think it's not worth it if they could earn a decent amount without the stress, abuse, risk etc.

I'm not against a minimum wage increase but everything else will go up with it, benefits, pensions, other wages.

 

[Randy McNob]

Ever since the minimum wage was introduced employers have said they can’t pay it. Every time it is increased employers have said they can’t pay it. Funny that.

If you have a business that cannot pay it's staff the minimum wage, it's not a viable business

 

[Bakero]

The breakthrough Party? What is this a reference to?

I imagine it's part of the modern trend by certain people of dismissing any leftwing idea by shouting antisemitism.

Unless @aolstudios has evidence that this party or any of its leaders are anti-jew.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

Sorry, not following. Are you in favour of a minimum wage, and in favour of increasing it or not, not?

I am in favour. The companies that can't afford it can then go bust, and more efficient companies that can afford it can take up the slack.

I'm not being entirely facetious here.

Small businesses won't be able to afford £16 p/h. Will mean more multi-nationals and a race to the bottom.

 

[beorhthelm]

If you have a business that cannot pay it's staff the minimum wage, it's not a viable business

it may be viable with fewer hours, fewer staff. depends on the level of minimum wage, and so many other factors you dont know about that you cant make such a sweeping statement.

 

[abc]

I am a long term fan of the minimum wage and gradual, managed increases can help minimise economic shocks. I don't know how £16 is arrived at, but it doesn't seem like an unreasonable target if we are to support the lowest paid as we must.

There are, however, two problems for employers and particularly small businesses:

1. Enforcement. We are very good at introducing legislation (from minimum wage to environmental) that add costs to a business. However, we are very bad at enforcement which means that those who choose to ignore the rules gain a competetive advantage
2. As our costs of production rise in the UK we are unable to compete with imports produced to lower standards and/or countries with lower wages. Therefore we either lose our own industries and jobs or we impose import tarifs. The former negates the benefit of a minimum wage as you require a job to receive it and the latter will increase inflation.

This is the sort of problem that requires intelligent, balanced, honest and competent politicians in Westminster to debate and resolve . I cant think of one, in any party, that ticks that box.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Nurseries and schools are under huge pressure already financially. If they have to give all staff a 50%ish pay rise they'd be free unless they change the number of children they could look after. I'm sure they'd all like to give staff more money but where it will come from is an issue. If you don't give the rest of workers a big pay increase at the same time we will lose even more teachers as they likely think it's not worth it if they could earn a decent amount without the stress, abuse, risk etc.

I'm not against a minimum wage increase but everything else will go up with it, benefits, pensions, other wages.

OK, yes, I see.

I am frankly torn between what appear to be the options.

One is to let the market decide. If you work in a unionized industry then there will be the usual stand-off, strikes and eventually a deal. Rinse and repeat. If you work in child care perhaps you are not in a union. Presumably you don't have much in the way of qualifications. If you work in a school you are probably better qualified and in a union. Either way, it is hard to strike and the options are generally to lump it or get another job. This is how the market works. This is why my brother left the teaching profession. This is why several young colleagues have (astonishingly, to me) left the university sector.

The other is to use the power and reach that HMG somehow managed to magic up multo monies during Covid. Apparently our economy is not tanked because of the money spaffed during Covid. According to the tories we have the best growth in Europe (etc. etc.). I am not going to contest that. But I am going to suggest that there is money available if there were a will to spend it. But how to spend it? Now, state schools are funded by the tax payer so there is no reason why HMG cannot bankroll payrises. But the people really struggling are minimum wage, poorly qualified, and this presumably includes typical child care workers. Frankly I would argue that given the proliferation of child care companies (see my previous post) and the massive private sector carehome industry, make them pay their staff more by increasing the minimum wage! Frankly I don't care if companies go bust. Where I work all the cleaners are on minimum wage. Privately contracted. If such companies go bust, HMG should take up the slack. The hospital where I work should employ cleaners directly (and incidentally we have no control over them if they don't do a good job - getting any action requires my reporting to the floor manager who then contacts the company, whereupon nothing happens). My granny spent her final years in a state owned care home. It was sold off by the tories. Frankly I don't favour the free market getting its claws into health and education. So in these areas, get them to pay up or sell up, and then nationalize.

One cannot argue that it is more cost effective to privatize care homes etc., then argue it would be bad that they would all go bust if the minimum wager were increased. Nurseries and schools may be under huge pressure but that's because of the financial model in which they operate. Minimum wage staff. My son worked as a classroom assistant some years ago. He was sacked on trumped up charges because the school could not afford to pay him. State schools are not favored by the conservatives. If I were a conservative I would favour minimum provision in the state system and would send my kids private. State schools equal bloody socialism. And to work properly they need proper socialist funding from HMG.

I would argue that nurseries, however, are private businesses. If they are struggling paying their minimum wage staff, tough. But as I showed, nurseries appear to be booming. There are three businesses on my street. One is a pub. The other two are private nurseries.

So, f*** it. Increase the minimum wage. Spend more tax payers money on state schools. Get rid of the tax-dodging charity status of private schools.

As I said, we have two choices - let the market decide, or Do Something. If things really are so tough for so many people (I have no idea - I live a soft life) then maybe they might think about voting for a bit of socialism. If they are wise they will vote Labour (and not squander their vote on some nut job loony lefty shower - various of which appear to be coming on line).

 

[abc]

Ever since the minimum wage was introduced employers have said they can’t pay it. Every time it is increased employers have said they can’t pay it. Funny that.

Agriculture has had a minimum wage structure imposed annually by the Agricultural wages board since the 1950s. Never been any arguments about its existence and levels are agreed following consultation with employee and employer reps. Most earn considerably more than the minimum in reality. Minimum wage works as a safety net and most employers pay more based on people's skills etc. The employers that annually object to the minimum wage will generally be those that have little respect for their staff per se.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Small businesses won't be able to afford £16 p/h. Will mean more multi-nationals and a race to the bottom.

Companies that can afford to pay a decent minimum wage taking over small companies that cannot?

What's wrong with that?

I'd be happy if all the industries were owned by one multinational if we had laws that ensured the workers were paid properly and treated properly. It can't be that difficult.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

The moment I read any party headline a promise to make university education free and cancel all student debt, I stop taking them seriously.
Actually that's not true, since it implies there was a moment when I was taking them seriously.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I'd be happy if all the industries were owned by one multinational if we had laws that ensured the workers were paid properly and treated properly. It can't be that difficult.

I'm pretty sure that would lead to the owners/controllers of said multinational rigging the political system and immediately getting rid of all those laws.