[Politics] The 2024 US Election - Trump v Harris

[Marlton and Hove Albion]

Indeed.

I would add (as I have before) that there is a good narrative that the Democrats have been spinning a load of old bollocks for decades, so it boils down to whose bollocks will affect your wealth in the most beneficial way.

(I remember hearing Hilary address a union in Chicago and was shocked by the Mick Lynch-style rhetoric and class-war claptrap she was using to woo that particular audience. This, a person whose servants barely get their hands dirty, let alone herself.

I was still sanguine about Hilary myself, but I'm an old lefty. For the non-doctrinaire voter, I can see how Trumps old bollocks may seem less of a problem than the lefty tax pro-immigrant narrative as the alternative.)

Don't forget, if 80 million vote for Trump, only a proportion will be MAGA oafs. The swing voters need better persuasion than on offer, it seems. Harris is slightly less inspiring than Starmer, and the US is a nation more addicted to the cult of leadership than the UK.

Stayed out of this thread for months as it's a general waste of time and results in purile personal attacks vs. honest attempts to hear another POV.

Election is coming very soon. Both candidates are deeply flawed. The voters are bombarded with negative ads. There is precious little vision for the future, which is what the independent voters are craving for. The country is bankrupt and adding more and more debt every second, drive through most of America and it's positively depressing with empty businesses, vacant lots, third world housing, homelessness and increasing crime. There is very little hope beyond vapid slogans of Making America Great or having the Wealthy Pay Their Fair Share.

The truth (my truth) is that America continues it's steady decline, like most empires right around 250 years from foundation (study them all), and no one has a clue on how or if the decline can be arrested.

There is a desperation about politics here. Desperation for solutions to intractable institutional issues.

1. Broken Healthcare system - Spending 2x as a benchmark for mediocre outcomes
2. Broken Immigration system - Every country must have real borders and real processes. Orderly migration protects everyone.
3. Broken Welfare system - Pensions and entitlements are bankrupting states and cities
4. Broken Infrastructure - Insufficient funding / Under investing for decades
5. Bloated Military Spending - Propping up a failing superpower, trillions have been wasted in an attempt to export American values around the world
6. Broken Retirement system (Social Security) - That will become insolvent without reform and no politicians are honest enough to deal with it. Most Americans do not have savings to sustain their retirement.
7. Broken Journalism - Media's historical role was to challenge authority, to report on corruption, to check power. There are pockets, but media is basically in the pockets of huge corporations. Power goes unchallenged
8. Broken Education - Look at where America ranks vs. it's peers on education. MANY inner cities spend >$20,000 per year per student and many students leave High School without basic skills. There are pockets of world class higher educational institutions but increasingly out of reach. Student Debt levels are in the Trillions.
9. A simmering hatred between radical right and radical left which taints and devalues humanity. Fingers are in ears and a silent civil war is underway. It could be that the country will be better served by breaking into ideological nations. Unless a major war occurs or an inspirational leader emerges, the divisions are only deepening. There is absolute palpable hatred.
10. Broken Political System - Requires candidates to raise tens of millions of dollars to campaign and special interests / lobbyists own most politicians.

Feel free to ignore, agree, argue / debate. It's not about Trump or Harris, Red or Blue, this has been a 50 year journey of decline.

There is alot to love about my adopted home. The vast majority of people are kind, caring, peace loving, hard working. There remains an amazing level of innovation, creativity, positive cultural contributions.

Go ahead and blame the Orange Man. Go ahead and blame Coronated Kamala. Real solutions just ain't there.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I know they are trolling - but I can't help but try!

No, you carry on. Someone has to do it. I put him on ignore a long time ago, and know he exists still only because of all the replies.

To recapitulate the tone of a post by @vegster earlier in a different context, it is a bit sad when people behave like absolute melts.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Stayed out of this thread for months as it's a general waste of time and results in purile personal attacks vs. honest attempts to hear another POV.

Election is coming very soon. Both candidates are deeply flawed. The voters are bombarded with negative ads. There is precious little vision for the future, which is what the independent voters are craving for. The country is bankrupt and adding more and more debt every second, drive through most of America and it's positively depressing with empty businesses, vacant lots, third world housing, homelessness and increasing crime. There is very little hope beyond vapid slogans of Making America Great or having the Wealthy Pay Their Fair Share.

The truth (my truth) is that America continues it's steady decline, like most empires right around 250 years from foundation (study them all), and no one has a clue on how or if the decline can be arrested.

There is a desperation about politics here. Desperation for solutions to intractable institutional issues.

1. Broken Healthcare system - Spending 2x as a benchmark for mediocre outcomes
2. Broken Immigration system - Every country must have real borders and real processes. Orderly migration protects everyone.
3. Broken Welfare system - Pensions and entitlements are bankrupting states and cities
4. Broken Infrastructure - Insufficient funding / Under investing for decades
5. Bloated Military Spending - Propping up a failing superpower, trillions have been wasted in an attempt to export American values around the world
6. Broken Retirement system (Social Security) - That will become insolvent without reform and no politicians are honest enough to deal with it. Most Americans do not have savings to sustain their retirement.
7. Broken Journalism - Media's historical role was to challenge authority, to report on corruption, to check power. There are pockets, but media is basically in the pockets of huge corporations. Power goes unchallenged
8. Broken Education - Look at where America ranks vs. it's peers on education. MANY inner cities spend >$20,000 per year per student and many students leave High School without basic skills. There are pockets of world class higher educational institutions but increasingly out of reach. Student Debt levels are in the Trillions.
9. A simmering hatred between radical right and radical left which taints and devalues humanity. Fingers are in ears and a silent civil war is underway. It could be that the country will be better served by breaking into ideological nations. Unless a major war occurs or an inspirational leader emerges, the divisions are only deepening. There is absolute palpable hatred.
10. Broken Political System - Requires candidates to raise tens of millions of dollars to campaign and special interests / lobbyists own most politicians.

Feel free to ignore, agree, argue / debate. It's not about Trump or Harris, Red or Blue, this has been a 50 year journey of decline.

There is alot to love about my adopted home. The vast majority of people are kind, caring, peace loving, hard working. There remains an amazing level of innovation, creativity, positive cultural contributions.

Go ahead and blame the Orange Man. Go ahead and blame Coronated Kamala. Real solutions just ain't there.

I hadn't realised it is so bad. I assumed that America had enough resource and space to make rampant capitalism work, with the 'haves' outweighing the 'have nots'. I have visited many times but not for several years. I always saw abject poverty just round the corner from opulant vulgarity, but assumed that this was an accepted part of 'the AmericanDream'scape.

Empires fade, but there are examples of long continuous nation states: China and Catholicism (the latter a global franchise). Even Italy is arguably nicer than Rome, even if the empire is gone.

I'd be surprise if America turns into The Walking Dead.

(and although I see a radical right in America, I see no radical left. Trump can call Harris a commy all he likes. She ain't).

 

[Marlton and Hove Albion]

I hadn't realised it is so bad. I assumed that America had enough resource and space to make rampant capitalism work, with the 'haves' outweighing the 'have nots'. I have visited many times but not for several years. I always saw abject poverty just round the corner from opulant vulgarity, but assumed that this was an accepted part of 'the AmericanDream'scape.

Empires fade, but there are examples of long continuous nation states: China and Catholicism (the latter a global franchise). Even Italy is arguably nicer than Rome, even if the empire is gone.

I'd be surprise if America turns into The Walking Dead.

(and although I see a radical right in America, I see no radical left. Trump can call Harris a commy all he likes. She ain't).

I hadn't realised it is so bad. I assumed that America had enough resource and space to make rampant capitalism work, with the 'haves' outweighing the 'have nots'. I have visited many times but not for several years. I always saw abject poverty just round the corner from opulant vulgarity, but assumed that this was an accepted part of 'the AmericanDream'scape.

Empires fade, but there are examples of long continuous nation states: China and Catholicism (the latter a global franchise). Even Italy is arguably nicer than Rome, even if the empire is gone.

I'd be surprise if America turns into The Walking Dead.

(and although I see a radical right in America, I see no radical left. Trump can call Harris a commy all he likes. She ain't).

I hadn't realised it is so bad. I assumed that America had enough resource and space to make rampant capitalism work, with the 'haves' outweighing the 'have nots'. I have visited many times but not for several years. I always saw abject poverty just round the corner from opulant vulgarity, but assumed that this was an accepted part of 'the AmericanDream'scape.

Empires fade, but there are examples of long continuous nation states: China and Catholicism (the latter a global franchise). Even Italy is arguably nicer than Rome, even if the empire is gone.

I'd be surprise if America turns into The Walking Dead.

(and although I see a radical right in America, I see no radical left. Trump can call Harris a commy all he likes. She ain't).

Sir John Glubb wrote an excellent book published in the 1950s about the 250 year fade of every empire. Compelling stuff.

New China is 80ish years old, older Chinese dynasties were fragmented, rarely imperial, generally focused on domestic issues, with various monarchs and bloated bureaucracies.

RC Inc is a good one, but their star began to fade with Luther and they are less and less influential as a meaningful "power". Wracked by sex scandals, they're not in the same league and never were.

I agree that Kamala is no commie. She is actually closer to classic fascism than she is a commie. Happy to share "evidence" if interested.

Ideological Radical Left? Hollywood, Mainstream Media, Higher Ed, Meta. Don't have to look very far.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I hadn't realised it is so bad. I assumed that America had enough resource and space to make rampant capitalism work, with the 'haves' outweighing the 'have nots'. I have visited many times but not for several years. I always saw abject poverty just round the corner from opulant vulgarity, but assumed that this was an accepted part of 'the AmericanDream'scape.


Sir John Glubb wrote an excellent book published in the 1950s about the 250 year fade of every empire. Compelling stuff.

New China is 80ish years old, older Chinese dynasties were fragmented, rarely imperial, generally focused on domestic issues, with various monarchs and bloated bureaucracies.

RC Inc is a good one, but their star began to fade with Luther and they are less and less influential as a meaningful "power". Wracked by sex scandals, they're not in the same league and never were.

I agree that Kamala is no commie. She is actually closer to classic fascism than she is a commie. Happy to share "evidence" if interested.

Ideological Radical Left? Hollywood, Mainstream Media, Higher Ed, Meta. Don't have to look very far.

You live there, you're the expert.

Question. When did it start to go wrong, or was it never right?

I was watching Alfred Hitchcock Presents recently. Filmed in late 50s or early 60s. There was not one single black or hispanic actor/character or extra on screen. And that would have seemed normal then. It seems quite weird to me now.

My suspicion is that poverty is out in the open now. When I was a kid, blacks didn't have a vote in America.

But (white) unions (Teamsters) were very powerful.

Beware recency bias. The thundering hooves of the horses of the apocalypse may be a long way away, yet.

 

[raymondo]

Stayed out of this thread for months as it's a general waste of time and results in purile personal attacks vs. honest attempts to hear another POV.

Election is coming very soon. Both candidates are deeply flawed. The voters are bombarded with negative ads. There is precious little vision for the future, which is what the independent voters are craving for. The country is bankrupt and adding more and more debt every second, drive through most of America and it's positively depressing with empty businesses, vacant lots, third world housing, homelessness and increasing crime. There is very little hope beyond vapid slogans of Making America Great or having the Wealthy Pay Their Fair Share.

The truth (my truth) is that America continues it's steady decline, like most empires right around 250 years from foundation (study them all), and no one has a clue on how or if the decline can be arrested.

There is a desperation about politics here. Desperation for solutions to intractable institutional issues.

1. Broken Healthcare system - Spending 2x as a benchmark for mediocre outcomes
2. Broken Immigration system - Every country must have real borders and real processes. Orderly migration protects everyone.
3. Broken Welfare system - Pensions and entitlements are bankrupting states and cities
4. Broken Infrastructure - Insufficient funding / Under investing for decades
5. Bloated Military Spending - Propping up a failing superpower, trillions have been wasted in an attempt to export American values around the world
6. Broken Retirement system (Social Security) - That will become insolvent without reform and no politicians are honest enough to deal with it. Most Americans do not have savings to sustain their retirement.
7. Broken Journalism - Media's historical role was to challenge authority, to report on corruption, to check power. There are pockets, but media is basically in the pockets of huge corporations. Power goes unchallenged
8. Broken Education - Look at where America ranks vs. it's peers on education. MANY inner cities spend >$20,000 per year per student and many students leave High School without basic skills. There are pockets of world class higher educational institutions but increasingly out of reach. Student Debt levels are in the Trillions.
9. A simmering hatred between radical right and radical left which taints and devalues humanity. Fingers are in ears and a silent civil war is underway. It could be that the country will be better served by breaking into ideological nations. Unless a major war occurs or an inspirational leader emerges, the divisions are only deepening. There is absolute palpable hatred.
10. Broken Political System - Requires candidates to raise tens of millions of dollars to campaign and special interests / lobbyists own most politicians.

Feel free to ignore, agree, argue / debate. It's not about Trump or Harris, Red or Blue, this has been a 50 year journey of decline.

There is alot to love about my adopted home. The vast majority of people are kind, caring, peace loving, hard working. There remains an amazing level of innovation, creativity, positive cultural contributions.

Go ahead and blame the Orange Man. Go ahead and blame Coronated Kamala. Real solutions just ain't there.

Very interesting to read, thanks. Sad but interesting.

 

[Marlton and Hove Albion]

You live there, you're the expert.

Question. When did it start to go wrong, or was it never right?

I was watching Alfred Hitchcock Presents recently. Filmed in late 50s or early 60s. There was not one single black or hispanic actor/character or extra on screen. And that would have seemed normal then. It seems quite weird to me now.

My suspicion is that poverty is out in the open now. When I was a kid, blacks didn't have a vote in America.

But (white) unions (Teamsters) were very powerful.

Beware recency bias. The thundering hooves of the horses of the apocalypse may be a long way away, yet.

I'm no expert. Just one of 330M or 350M depending on who you're counting. I live a lovely sheltered affluent life in SW Florida. Lived in Philly and South Jersey for 20+ years. I travel around the country for work, so these are my observations.

It also depends on what we define as progress. Are we safer, do we have a higher standard of living, are we healthier, is life expectancy increasing/decreasing, are we happier/more satisfied, are we optimistic etc? Those are all individual benchmarks and by no means exhaustive.

While there remains racism (of course) in pockets, the country twice elected Obama. That means something. Before Obama, references to "racism" in the media was pretty consistently flat for 50+ years. The racism "industry" really took off from 2008-2016 and the market for racism far outweighs the supply of it.

Was it ever right? Who knows? Not long ago, America balanced it's budget, controlled it's borders, real income consistently increased, as did life expectancy. The military industrial complex wasn't super active and crime wasn't a major issue. Governmental institutions had a degree of competence and respect. I give you the Clinton Years. Look back on his policy positions and speeches. He would be considered a classic Republican now.

 

[Marlton and Hove Albion]

I have to agree with your characterisation of the thread there and as the thread starter, I find it very frustrating when the thread gets derailed with the same few posters trolling each other - even when they have them on ignore!

I don’t think there is any grounds for personally abusing people for holding contrary political opinions.

Attacking people and mocking them is only going to make them dig in deeper until all you have is a polarised debate which is nothing more than an echo chamber with one side eventually bullied into silence.

What I don’t understand is why some people make absolutely no contribution to the debate other than ridicule and derail the thread with the same boring personal attacks on others - I can only assume they have made no effort to really familiarise themselves with the issues so attacking others is their only way to contribute.

Thank you for chiming in. I disagree with your description of Harris being a ‘fascist’ though.

America is not my ‘adopted home’ but it is the actual home of family members born there (3rd and 4th generation immigrants) along with others adopting it on the way so I get to hear first hand what it is like living there and have visited often - I’ll refer you to my post above - describing the polarised and hatred filled society America (and not just America) has become.

What is a fascist?

Subvert information, willfully censor information from public, glorify and protect leader, prosecute and subjugate domestic dissenters, generally pro-war, lie to protect the brand, believe in central control, subvert or dismantle democratic processes to stay in power.

How many boxes does the current administration check?

 

[US Seagull]

Election is coming very soon. Both candidates are deeply flawed.

No they aren't. That is a lazy cliche. They are not both deeply flawed.

Only one of them insults, demeans, throws tantrums and tried to overthrow the US government. One lives in reality, the other lives in a deranged fantasy world. One is fit for office, the other has lost what little mental faculties he originally had and is reduced to vaguely swaying while his people play music for half an hour.

Don't be saying they are both deeply flawed. You can certainly argue that Kamala Harris isn't perfect, nobody is, but the other candidate is a vile wannabe dictator who is totally unhinged. He showed us what kind of president he'd be and it killed millions of Americans and crashed the economy.

Don't both sides this. The sides are definitely not equal. They are not the same.

 

[US Seagull]

What is a fascist?

Subvert information, willfully censor information from public, glorify and protect leader, prosecute and subjugate domestic dissenters, generally pro-war, lie to protect the brand, believe in central control, subvert or dismantle democratic processes to stay in power.

How many boxes does the current administration check?

None of them?

 

[Zeberdi]

I'm no expert. Just one of 330M or 350M depending on who you're counting. I live a lovely sheltered affluent life in SW Florida. Lived in Philly and South Jersey for 20+ years. I travel around the country for work, so these are my observations.

It also depends on what we define as progress. Are we safer, do we have a higher standard of living, are we healthier, is life expectancy increasing/decreasing, are we happier/more satisfied, are we optimistic etc? Those are all individual benchmarks and by no means exhaustive.

While there remains racism (of course) in pockets, the country twice elected Obama. That means something. Before Obama, references to "racism" in the media was pretty consistently flat for 50+ years. The racism "industry" really took off from 2008-2016 and the market for racism far outweighs the supply of it.

Was it ever right? Who knows? Not long ago, America balanced it's budget, controlled it's borders, real income consistently increased, as did life expectancy. The military industrial complex wasn't super active and crime wasn't a major issue. Governmental institutions had a degree of competence and respect. I give you the Clinton Years. Look back on his policy positions and speeches. He would be considered a classic Republican now.

I think it still remains a question for millions of Americans whether the US is ready for a Black female President.

Btw - half the relatives I have living in the States (Georgia, New York State) are Black, the other half Jewish and a Mexican immigrant married to my Nephew and living in Texas - so we know first hand a little about racial discrimination in our family - while America may have moved on, the racist elements are still as firmly entrenched in those pockets you mention as they ever were and have re-established themselves as a power of influence on the Republican Party - in particular fully embraced in Project 2025, Trump’s centralising, anti-immigrant policy plans for change.

The difference now of course, as with many progressive societies, overt racism is outlawed but outlawing something does not extinguish it..

 

[Marlton and Hove Albion]

No they aren't. That is a lazy cliche. They are not both deeply flawed.

Only one of them insults, demeans, throws tantrums and tried to overthrow the US government. One lives in reality, the other lives in a deranged fantasy world. One is fit for office, the other has lost what little mental faculties he originally had and is reduced to vaguely swaying while his people play music for half an hour.

Don't be saying they are both deeply flawed. You can certainly argue that Kamala Harris isn't perfect, nobody is, but the other candidate is a vile wannabe dictator who is totally unhinged. He showed us what kind of president he'd be and it killed millions of Americans and crashed the economy.

Don't both sides this. The sides are definitely not equal. They are not the same.

Back to

No they aren't. That is a lazy cliche. They are not both deeply flawed.

Only one of them insults, demeans, throws tantrums and tried to overthrow the US government. One lives in reality, the other lives in a deranged fantasy world. One is fit for office, the other has lost what little mental faculties he originally had and is reduced to vaguely swaying while his people play music for half an hour.

Don't be saying they are both deeply flawed. You can certainly argue that Kamala Harris isn't perfect, nobody is, but the other candidate is a vile wannabe dictator who is totally unhinged. He showed us what kind of president he'd be and it killed millions of Americans and crashed the economy.

Don't both sides this. The sides are definitely not equal. They are not the same.

So very predictable and as I wrote above. A general unwillingness to listen to another POV. Its why we are where we are. Adios.

 

[Crawley Dingo]

That's not a thing. That's another of your deranged fantasies.

Are blond men evil? You asked Google – here’s the answer | Edward Tew

Every day millions of internet users ask Google life’s most difficult questions, big and small. Our writers answer some of the commonest queries

www.theguardian.com

 

[Crawley Dingo]

This is counter-argumentative. If second-generation immigrants vote 6-2 Republican, then gradually the country will turn more and more Republican. And this would never be outweighed by greater levels of immigration because you simply could not have enough 'new' immigrants to outweigh the second generational shift. Unless you are saying that they then switch back again at a later date?

It's also a myth that immigration is Democrat led. There is little correlation whatsoever - it was a Republican President 1969-76, 1981-93, 2001-08, 2016-20. The levels of immigration in those periods seem very similar to the level of immigration in the intervening Democratic periods. In fact the 'boom' in immigration appears to have begum in about 1970 - during a Republican presidential period.

So - where is your evidence that it is the Democrats that are allowing / encouraging higher immigration than the Republicans??

View attachment 190451

As for your comment that people vote Democrat because of more friendly faces and support. Yes indeed. It seems to me as though you are saying that Republican voters are unfriendly and unsupportive.

I know the type of person I would prefer.

Edwars Kennedy changed the immigration laws.

 

[US Seagull]

Back to

So very predictable and as I wrote above. A general unwillingness to listen to another POV. Its why we are where we are. Adios.

You clearly had no intention of any kind of good faith discussion. You are trying to pretend to be some kind of even minded centrist and then spout a bunch of nonsense that reveals that really, you just hate Harris.

 

[The Clamp]

Back to

So very predictable and as I wrote above. A general unwillingness to listen to another POV. Its why we are where we are. Adios.

I’m not sure what other POV one really needs after watching Trump sway around for 40 mins while listening to a Karen Spotify playlist?

 

[US Seagull]

Are blond men evil? You asked Google – here’s the answer | Edward Tew

Every day millions of internet users ask Google life’s most difficult questions, big and small. Our writers answer some of the commonest queries

www.theguardian.com

that's your evidence?!? You really are scrapping the bottom of the barrel. The best you can come up with is a seven year old article that clearly isn't supposed to be taken seriously by some random freelancer writing in the Guardian?

 

[Crawley Dingo]

I think you misunderstand the meaning of ‘identity politics’ in political discourse - ‘white men’ have not had to fight for equal rights, for the right to marriage, the right to be free from discrimination on the grounds of gender or for equal pay. They have not had to fight to get access to justice and the right to equal treatment under the law, equal access to the employment market, health and education or freedom from oppression in American society.

Nobody fought for anything, white men invented all the good stuff and then it was incrementally distributed it. even sending the 101st airborne in to end segregation. Its called first mover advantage, you invent it so get to use it first.

 

[The Clamp]

Nobody fought for anything, white men invented all the good stuff and then it was incrementally distributed it. even sending the 101st airborne in to end segregation. Its called first mover advantage, you invent it so get to use it first.

“White men invented all the good stuff”

Could you elaborate?

 

[Crawley Dingo]

that's your evidence?!? You really are scrapping the bottom of the barrel. The best you can come up with is a seven year old article that clearly isn't supposed to be taken seriously by some random freelancer writing in the Guardian?

They platformed it.