[Politics] Sunak's benefits shake up

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Maybe it’s because it’s almost impossible to get to see GP

Are you suggesting the Sunak plan is because it is almost impossible to see a GP?

Not a very well considered solution, if I may say so. If you can't get a plumber would you call in an electrician, or plasterer?

Also it isn't the reason Sunak himself gave, which was to reduce the number of people claiming benefits due to being signed off work owing to sickness by a doctor.

However, if his plan is a hit with you, perhaps this suggests another reason why he has proposed it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Why put illegal immigration in quote marks like that as if it doesn’t exist? It does exist. The majority of immigrants arrive perfectly lawfully with visas and by prearrangement, to rejoin families or take up job offers etc. No problem whatever. People who arrive unofficially, including those in small boats, do so illegally. Yes, plenty will later be granted the right to stay and acquire legal status. Again, no problem. But there is such a thing as illegal immigration and it creates significant problems. As with the minority playing the welfare system, they create problems for those who genuinely deserve support and finance. You need to acknowledge that not everyone has good intentions, just as you rightly complain about the negative consequences for those who aren’t treated fairly by the system. Play fair and be treated fairly. That should be the principle to unite behind, and to strive for.

I don't think you quite understand my post. The 'illegal immigration' bit is just a tiny part of it. I am disinclined to 'explain' it without providing the context, but I'm not sure you're interested in the context, so I'll leave it there, it that's OK

Edit: it is clear from my post the quote marks were to make it clear the context was the narrative about use of weaponized concepts. I was not suggesting there is no such thing as illegal immigration. In fact we have an Illegal Immigration minister who deals only with illegal immigration (presumably we have another minister who deals with legal immigration, but this has passed me by), so one would have thought they have had it all under control for ages, with no need to weaponize it at all

 

[Westdene Seagull]

And many are simply on long term or repeated sick leave post-Pandemic, with stress, PTSD, Long-Covid, and debilitating exhaustion from understaffing problems.

I don’t think Sunak, being all chipper in their faces about how he wants to end ‘sicknote culture’ and end ‘over-medicalising’ the day to day difficulties of life will win friends and influence people working for the NHS somehow.

View attachment 180948

The biggest problem is that GPs aren't actually NHS employees - they are either self employed or employed by a private business. This means THEY get to choose their hours. The government should be looking at bringing all GPs in as NHS employees and not on their £100k private salaries. Once that is completed then lets bring dentists back into the NHS employee fold. Nearly all GPs and Dentists have had their training subsidised by the British tax payer - time to make good - or pay the FULL cost of your training back to the NHS if you want to be a private employee.

 

[Baldseagull]

Why put illegal immigration in quote marks like that as if it doesn’t exist? It does exist. The majority of immigrants arrive perfectly lawfully with visas and by prearrangement, to rejoin families or take up job offers etc. No problem whatever. People who arrive unofficially, including those in small boats, do so illegally. Yes, plenty will later be granted the right to stay and acquire legal status. Again, no problem. But there is such a thing as illegal immigration and it creates significant problems. As with the minority playing the welfare system, they create problems for those who genuinely deserve support and finance. You need to acknowledge that not everyone has good intentions, just as you rightly complain about the negative consequences for those who aren’t treated fairly by the system. Play fair and be treated fairly. That should be the principle to unite behind, and to strive for.

Most illegal immigrants enter legally on a valid visa or come from a non visa country, and then overstay. Most arriving in small boats claim asylum and it is legal to enter in any way physically possible, to claim asylum.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The biggest problem is that GPs aren't actually NHS employees - they are either self employed or employed by a private business. This means THEY get to choose their hours. The government should be looking at bringing all GPs in as NHS employees and not on their £100k private salaries. Once that is completed then lets bring dentists back into the NHS employee fold. Nearly all GPs and Dentists have had their training subsidised by the British tax payer - time to make good - or pay the FULL cost of your training back to the NHS if you want to be a private employee.

The issue is more to do with a the number of qualified GPs declining year on year. Reverse this and there’ll be change.

 

[maltaseagull]

Yer fair enough , although this was reported in all media outlets

This is a bit more nuanced. Still doesn't paint a great picture.

Are half of British households a burden on the state? - Full Fact

"Half of Britain is a burden on the state," the Sunday Times reported over the weekend. A number of newspapers also reported the news that the majority …

fullfact.org

Using ONS data, we broke down the numbers into retired and non-retired households. The chart below illustrates how much each household gains from state benefits or contributes to the national income.

This shows a slightly different picture, as working-age households in the middle-earning quintile contribute more to the state then they receive. Across all income brackets, if you take out pensioners, the percentage of net recipients is 39.6% - not 53.4%. One could therefore argue that a big driver for the increase in the number of net recipients is the rise in the number of retired households.

Bloody pensioners.

Who in most cases have WORKED for 50+ years and contributed towards their pension with NI contributions. Whereas the millions on benefits contribute nothing.
There are genuine cases I am sure, but also many scroungers.
But it's not trendy to say that.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Most illegal immigrants enter legally on a valid visa or come from a non visa country, and then overstay. Most arriving in small boats claim asylum and it is legal to enter in any way physically possible, to claim asylum.

So with all this legal immigration followed, in some cases, but visa violations etc., what is the minister for Illegal Immigration doing? Presumably he will be focused in dealing with those who arrive illegally then go rogue. If they have gone rogue how is he supposed to send them to Rwanda? It all seems so complicated? And how have the tories managed to weaponize it? I mean, they have been in charge for 13 years. If there are any problems and issues, surely these are all of their own making? Am I missing something*? Whatabout Jeremy Corbyn?



* such as, it's all a load of old bollocks? Maybe? Who knows?

 

[BLOCK F]

And many are simply on long term or repeated sick leave post-Pandemic, with stress, PTSD, Long-Covid, and debilitating exhaustion from understaffing problems.

I don’t think Sunak, being all chipper in their faces about how he wants to end ‘sicknote culture’ and end ‘over-medicalising’ the day to day difficulties of life will win friends and influence people working for the NHS somehow.

View attachment 180948

That’s as may be, but not in our surgery.
They have plenty of non medical staff and plenty of doctors.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Who in most cases have WORKED for 50+ years and contributed towards their pension with NI contributions. Whereas the millions on benefits contribute nothing.
There are genuine cases I am sure, but also many scroungers.
But it's not trendy to say that.

Are you a follower of fashion? Can you point me to what's trendy? I'm not sure what to think anymore, and worry that my opinions have gone a bit stale. What's the 'with it' view now, on, say, the NHS, and women's rights, and the immigrant problem (used to be called the Jewish Problem back in the day). Drink driving (can we still do it)? What about capitol punishment (I've heard the traffic in London is terrible these days)? You sound like you're in the know. Why don't you fill me in?

(In seriousness, there may well be many scroungers. Who knows. What are the figures? Rather than not trendy, it now seems that EVERYONE is saying there are many scroungers. But how many is too many? When will we know when we have enough. And more importantly, what is Sunak going to do about it? One plan maybe is to take medical decisions out of the hands of medics and give it to someone else. The police maybe? They aren't busy now that the Tories have solved crime. Or maybe Farmers? Or bricklayers? Nobody is better placed to decide whether someone is fit to work better than a brickie, surely? I mean, surely? )

 

[Zeberdi]

The biggest problem is that GPs aren't actually NHS employees - they are either self employed or employed by a private business. This means THEY get to choose their hours. The government should be looking at bringing all GPs in as NHS employees and not on their £100k private salaries. Once that is completed then lets bring dentists back into the NHS employee fold. Nearly all GPs and Dentists have had their training subsidised by the British tax payer - time to make good - or pay the FULL cost of your training back to the NHS if you want to be a private employee.

True but your post has nothing to do with the points I was making - my post was relating to Sunak’s ‘sick note’ comments which applies to everyone not just NHS employees - so my point still stands that GPs are suffering from long term stress and burnout and take time off work/away from patients - Sunak’s whole reason to introduce reforms imo is to cut down on benefit reform and also make it harder for people to ‘coast the system at the expense of the taxpayer’

Fit notes still apply for salaried GPs and Partners and the practice claim for locum cover reimbursements while the contracted GP is entitled to statutory sick pay and a full salary.

My point is, I am sure there are thousands of ‘malingerers’ milking the ‘sicknote’ system but I don’t believe NHS staff and GPs are among them in any significant numbers.

 

[Baldseagull]

So with all this legal immigration followed, in some cases, but visa violations etc., what is the minister for Illegal Immigration doing? Presumably he will be focused in dealing with those who arrive illegally then go rogue. If they have gone rogue how is he supposed to send them to Rwanda? It all seems so complicated? And how have the tories managed to weaponize it? I mean, they have been in charge for 13 years. If there are any problems and issues, surely these are all of their own making? Am I missing something*? Whatabout Jeremy Corbyn?



* such as, it's all a load of old bollocks? Maybe? Who knows?

Rwanda is not for illegal immigrants, its for asylum seekers that arrive in a small boat, only those without a criminal record, no families, no homosexuals, and a maximum of 200, each will be funded by between £20,000 to £30,000 plus £120M grant to Rwanda. In return, they will send us an equal number of vulnerable refugees that are in Rwanda, that we will financially support. If someone is an illegal immigrant, they will have a criminal record, for illegal immigration, and Rwanda will not accept us sending them anyone with a criminal record.

4 Rwandan citizens were granted asylum here recently, not sure if they arrived by small boat.
Is it any wonder people are feeling mentally unwell, when this sort of bollocks is flagship policy of the governing party.

 

[maltaseagull]

I sit on a university panel that decides whether students can be given extensions for coursework, or defer an exam, due to mitigating circumstances. The request should be specified (i.e., 'can I have an extra week'). Often the student leaves this part blank and lets the committee decide.

If the request is based on a medical issue (less than half are), the committee needs to see a medical certificate. When we see it we have to decided whether it covers the relevant period. For example we may have a student asking for a 2 week extension because they had documented gastroenteritis during the last three days of a 2 month period during which they were supposed to be working on a dissertation. We then have to exercise our judgement. Not about the medical condition but about the response to it, the 'benefit' if you like. In the present example we could say 'the student should of got the work done earlier rather than finish it off on the last 3 days'. What we would actually do would be to give them an extra week, because they were sick when they were expected t be working. Facts about health win here, not moral judgements about the student's lifestyle or work-planning strategem.

An extra week. Not a lifetime's reward of free money.

And we are not judging the impact of the health condition on the student's ability to work. Why? Because we are not the student's GP. Who are we to over-rule the clinical decision of a clinician? Remember the student came to us with a sick note for the relevant period. The clinician has made their decision based on clinical judgement. Hence the sick note.

What Sunk is doing here is saying that the GP is wrong and some other body needs to make the clinical decision about someone's fitness to work.

The reality is that creating this new system will be insanely expensive and would pay for itself only if most of the GP's decisions were over-ruled.

So it is a laughable bit of vote-bait for the hard of thinking, who imagine their taxes will be reduced by taking money away from scroungers. This one is even more preposterous and unworkable than the Rwanda wheeze. It will simply cost money and cause distress. What a guy.

I have the utmost respect for you but I am sorry, whilst I agree that you should not ignore a GP's diagnosis can you not accept that far too many are able to convince the doctor that they have "mental health" issues?
It has certainly become the most common phrase in the last few years.

 

[Cotton Socks]

He's a lazy **** who doesn't want to work.

I appreciate your considered response!

So you've called me an ignorant twat but you haven't called me that??

No, I haven't called you an ignorant tw@t. And I will highlight that on my next post I said the following....

but unfortunately it just looks like I've had a go at @Cornwallboy (sorry) because it would take ages to fit everyone after his post in.

So, I haven't called you an ignorant tw@t with regards to mental health awareness and I apologised to you in my next post if it seemed like I was 'picking on you' with an explanation. I hope that clears things up.

 

[maltaseagull]

If none of the GPs or Nurses in your area are suffering from burnout, exhaustion and stress related illnesses and you have ‘plenty of doctors’, then you are living in a very well supplied area - making it harder for them to get sicknote/fit notes where they are suffering from stress related absenteeism isn’t the answer to curb the ‘sick-note culture’ as Sunak compassionately terms it IMO. More investment, a more equitable distribution of primary care resources and more recruitment is.

“GPs in the UK have some of the highest stress levels and lowest job satisfaction among family doctors, a 10-country survey has found. British GPs suffer from high levels of burnout, have a worse work/life balance and spend less time with patients during appointments than their peers in many other places. Heavy workloads, seemingly endless paperwork and feelings of emotional distress are prompting many GPs to stop seeing patients regularly or even retire altogether, the research found. Seven in 10 (71%) NHS family doctors find their job “extremely” or “very stressful”, the joint-highest number alongside GPs in Germany among the countries analysed.”

UK GPs have the highest stress levels, finds survey of 10 countries’ doctors

Burnout, poor work/life balance and ‘unsustainable’ pressures are causing many NHS family practitioners to consider retirement

www.theguardian.com

What do you suggest is the solution?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

True but your post has nothing to do with the points I was making - my post was relating to Sunak’s ‘sick note’ comments which applies to everyone not just NHS employees - so my point still stands that GPs are suffering from long term stress and burnout and take time off work/away from patients - Sunak’s whole reason to introduce reforms imo is to cut down on benefit reform and also make it harder for people to ‘coast the system at the expense of the taxpayer’

Fit notes still apply for salaried GPs and Partners and the practice claim for locum cover reimbursements while the contracted GP is entitled to statutory sick pay and a full salary.

My point is, I am sure there are thousands of ‘malingerers’ milking the ‘sicknote’ system but I don’t believe NHS staff and GPs are among them in any significant numbers.

Mate, it has gone off piste. There are wildfire discussions about whether immigration is a good thing, should patients be triaged by a nurse practitioner, and even whether it is best to take an aspirin by mouth or up the jacksy.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It is not illegal to come in a small boat and ask for asylum. I don't know how many times this has to be said. It is written in the United Nations convention on refugees 1952 as signed up to by Sir Winston Churchill.
Illegal immigrants are students who overstay their visas or just disappear when they land to work in illegal gangs. A vast difference.


Get them processed, deport the ones who don't pass the asylum criteria and let the rest build lives and work.

But....but.....how could it then be weaponized?

The Tories would never do anything like that.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

and even whether it is best to take an aspirin by mouth or up the jacksy.

I can feel a POLL coming.

 

[Cotton Socks]

I admire your restraint. There is a lot to be angry about with respect to this latest 'proposal'. In fact, there is everything to be angry about, right down to the 'this is all kindness and common sense' tone with which Sunk delivered the announcement yesterday.

However, for some, the key issue is that I was rude to a couple of oafs (sorry, fine upstanding old conservatives), yesterday.

A 'cruel to be kind', type of announcement was it?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Rwanda is not for illegal immigrants, its for asylum seekers that arrive in a small boat, only those without a criminal record, no families, no homosexuals, and a maximum of 200, each will be funded by between £20,000 to £30,000 plus £120M grant to Rwanda. In return, they will send us an equal number of vulnerable refugees that are in Rwanda, that we will financially support. If someone is an illegal immigrant, they will have a criminal record, for illegal immigration, and Rwanda will not accept us sending them anyone with a criminal record.

4 Rwandan citizens were granted asylum here recently, not sure if they arrived by small boat.
Is it any wonder people are feeling mentally unwell, when this sort of bollocks is flagship policy of the governing party.

Breathtaking isn't it?

I think anyone falling for this sort of roshambo is gammon by definition.

 

[maltaseagull]

You already did that for yourself, time after time, when pissing about and trolling on NSC.

Spare me your pop-faced indignity. Haven't you got important and lucrative work to do?

You didn't a

Are you a follower of fashion? Can you point me to what's trendy? I'm not sure what to think anymore, and worry that my opinions have gone a bit stale. What's the 'with it' view now, on, say, the NHS, and women's rights, and the immigrant problem (used to be called the Jewish Problem back in the day). Drink driving (can we still do it)? What about capitol punishment (I've heard the traffic in London is terrible these days)? You sound like you're in the know. Why don't you fill me in?

(In seriousness, there may well be many scroungers. Who knows. What are the figures? Rather than not trendy, it now seems that EVERYONE is saying there are many scroungers. But how many is too many? When will we know when we have enough. And more importantly, what is Sunak going to do about it? One plan maybe is to take medical decisions out of the hands of medics and give it to someone else. The police maybe? They aren't busy now that the Tories have solved crime. Or maybe Farmers? Or bricklayers? Nobody is better placed to decide whether someone is fit to work better than a brickie, surely? I mean, surely? )

I am sorry but that is a pathetic response.
You don't need to ask those questions.
You appear to know the answer to everything.
I usually enjoy reading your posts but am beginning to think you are a little bit arrogant.
BTW it's Capital punishment.