[Politics] Starmer v Sunak *** Official Match Thread ***

[medwayseagull reborn]

So no policy for the future then?

Plenty of policy if you CHOOSE to look.

 

[Nobby]

Didn’t watch it

But if a huge majority of Tory voters in 2019 thought that Sunak won it, then that has to be very bad news for Labour.
Surely that means that most of those 2019 Tory voters in the “Red Wall”, will still vote Tory.

And the Opinion Poll gaps will reduce big time in the next few days?

So depressing

 

[Blue3]

The first part of the debate Sunak used short sharp sound bite ”Labour will increase your tax by £2000” which he said 8 times without response before the commercial break, I assume this gave the Labour team time to update Starmer who was then armed to rebuke these claims however he didn’t or couldn’t do so effectively . 1-0 Sunak

The 45 second speaking time suited Sunak's use of sound bites and constantly talking beyond the allotted time and then over any response put by Starmer who was clearly ill at ease having to defend and rebuff accusations, while not being given enough time to develop his more narrative response . 2-0 Sunak

The chairwoman pulled off a remarkable feat of being both tough and weak at the same time, Sunak benefited the most from this . 3-0 Sunak

In summary Sunak won 3-0 on the night, a debate it was not, I do hope the same format and chairwoman are not used again.

For the next head to head debate I would like to see a stronger chairperson with longer time constraints and even adopt ting the USA debate technique where Trumps microphone was switched off to stop interruptions.

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

These threads don’t contain swing voters. Instead the same old polarised Tory haters or Tory voters. With a smidgen of others.

And what would NSC’s finest have had to argue about yesterday/this morning had Sunak v Starmer and Milk Shake Gate not happened.

I wonder what will happen next so that the same old arguments and insults can be recycled once again.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Wow. Just wow.

It must be difficult to convey authority when everyone just wants to pat you on head

 

[Guinness Boy]

Who is this new woman on Today?

She’s awful.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Deary me. After Sunak repeated the same lie about a dozen times, the treasury have had to come out and throw the Tories under the bus with their £2k-TaxLie. They have disowned the figures.

Repeat a lie enough, people will believe it. Always the Tory election tactic but they’ll surely not get away with it this time.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The first part of the debate Sunak used short sharp sound bite ”Labour will increase your tax by £2000” which he said 8 times without response before the commercial break, I assume this gave the Labour team time to update Starmer who was then armed to rebuke these claims however he didn’t or couldn’t do so effectively . 1-0 Sunak

The 45 second speaking time suited Sunak's use of sound bites and constantly talking beyond the allotted time and then over any response put by Starmer who was clearly ill at ease having to defend and rebuff accusations, while not being given enough time to develop his more narrative response . 2-0 Sunak

The chairwoman pulled off a remarkable feat of being both tough and weak at the same time, Sunak benefited the most from this . 3-0 Sunak

In summary Sunak won 3-0 on the night, a debate it was not, I do hope the same format and chairwoman are not used again.

For the next head to head debate I would like to see a stronger chairperson with longer time constraints and even adopt ting the USA debate technique where Trumps microphone was switched off to stop interruptions.

Repeating a lie, talikng over your opponent and talking over the host does not "win" you a debate.

However, if your criteria is who is the most forceful and aggressive then Sunak clearly won.

To say Starmer scored NIL is ridiculous. The audience laughed in Rishi's face on at least 2 occasions.

 

[A1X]

The Tories are going to be livid when they see the highlights on ITV news.

Very pro-Starmer because they edited out all the bits when the presenter was not in control.

Wow, so basically just the opening titles and end credits?

 

[A1X]

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Just watched this. I’m going to try and be neutral which is easy as I’m not voting for either of them.

If you ignore where they are in the polls then it was a Sunak trouncing. He had all the big hits. Starmer added very little and you came away not having much of a clue what he stood for, other than he’d let his granny die rather than use private health care.

However that’s all he has to. Not drop any major bollock. Frankly a chair would beat the Tories at the moment. All Starmer has to do is nothing and he will win. Whereas Sunak has to throw everything at it. Not surprising given that that Sunak came out on top.

If this is the state the Tories have got the NHS into then by christ we need a change

 

[Guinness Boy]

Treasury are now saying Sunak’s £2000 claim is incorrect.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Just said on Newsnight that Starmer may’ve very deliberately not answered the £2k question, because there’s substance in greater higher taxes to fund all the pledges (beyond schools VAT).

We’re not party to the traps they’re laying for each other for later in the campaign.

I understand that Starmer explained this was a figure made up by Conservative SPADS under their guise of 'civil servants' when he was allowed to reply.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6ppnw1k6nyo

The Conservatives say the costings have been worked out by impartial civil servants, but they are based on assumptions made by politically-appointed special advisers. For example, one costing looks at Labour’s plan to have more services provided by the state instead of by private companies and it assumes that private companies are always 7.5% more efficient. But the civil servants doing the costings warned about the use of that figure.

What's that thing about halfway round the world and putting shoes on

 

[Machiavelli]

Just said on Newsnight that Starmer may’ve very deliberately not answered the £2k question, because there’s substance in greater higher taxes to fund all the pledges (beyond schools VAT).

We’re not party to the traps they’re laying for each other for later in the campaign.

OK, I do now understand and whoever said this on Newsnight is speaking absolute bolleaux. Starmer has adopted the 'ming vase' strategy. He was specifically asked about income tax, VAT (excepting private schools) and NI on that debate and ruled out increasing them. Newsnight person quite transparently wasn't even paying attention to the debate, let alone the months and years of the build up to it.
The striking thing about Labour under Starmer is not 'all the pledges' but the paucity of them. This jars substantially with the claim about decline, crisis, broken this and that, which all presuppose radical transformation.
I also think that the last thing either leader ought to do in the two head-to-heads they have is to lay traps for later in the campaign.

 

[Machiavelli]

Just watched this. I’m going to try and be neutral which is easy as I’m not voting for either of them.

If you ignore where they are in the polls then it was a Sunak trouncing. He had all the big hits. Starmer added very little and you came away not having much of a clue what he stood for, other than he’d let his granny die rather than use private health care.

However that’s all he has to. Not drop any major bollock. Frankly a chair would beat the Tories at the moment. All Starmer has to do is nothing and he will win. Whereas Sunak has to throw everything at it. Not surprising given that that Sunak came out on top.

I actually agree with you that Sunak won on the night, but at what cost? He said the £2k tax thing SEVEN times in the first ten minutes of the debate, mostly talking about this will be the tax rise for every household but also once for every taxpayer. This is a lie. Labour are now rightly saying that it's a lie after Starmer's reticence to do so. Labour are also saying that all the Tories have got left is lies, that Johnson lied over Covid parties.
Maybe you could address this point about their lies?

 

[A mex eyecan]

These TV debates are utterly irrelevant as every one has made up their mind. As this thread clearly proves

Well I had before I watched it. It’s help me to decide not to vote for either of them

 

[Weststander]

I understand that Starmer explained this was a figure made up by Conservative SPADS under their guise of 'civil servants' when he was allowed to reply.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6ppnw1k6nyo

The Conservatives say the costings have been worked out by impartial civil servants, but they are based on assumptions made by politically-appointed special advisers. For example, one costing looks at Labour’s plan to have more services provided by the state instead of by private companies and it assumes that private companies are always 7.5% more efficient. But the civil servants doing the costings warned about the use of that figure.

What's that thing about halfway round the world and putting shoes on

Then hopefully Starmer will expose that at the next debate.

Having scepticism, I think there’s something more subtle going on here. Labour have a put a red line on not raising some taxes, but not on hugely raising overall taxation.

Where’s the money coming from to improve the partly falling to bits NHS, transform the lives of the millions working just to exist, subsidise the millions of new affordable homes needed, fix our third world roads, a big pay rise for doctors? I haven’t mentioned VAT on schooling, as that’s ear marked for new teachers.

You heard it here first. Taxation will significantly increase.

 

[Napper]

This has always been a Tory board and some of those comments last night were worrying if it’s reflective across the country ( unlikely)

Thankfully the opinions seem to of called that a draw / starmer win and now the lie of 2k has been exposed it sort of puts it to bed

Concerning how some can blindly still back something with the evidence slapping them in the face

But then people did vote for boris and Brexit


( tax increases for those that can afford is not a bad thing . People very much sed self self )

 

[A1X]

You heard it here first. Taxation will significantly increase.

Realistically this has to happen whoever wins, but both sides seem to think admitting it will hurt them (probably not incorrectly). So instead we have to dance around in this fantasy world where all this stuff will be fixed but nobody pays more for it for the next month.

 

[Titanic]

This has always been a Tory board ...