[Politics] Starmer v Sunak *** Official Match Thread ***

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I always had him down as far more intelligent than Corbyn. Once it went belly up in Dec 2019, McDonnell revealed a new non-lectern thumping persona, an interesting contributor.

Whilst Magic Grandpa carried on with preaching in echo chambers.

But sadly JM looked (and sounded like) Spare Head three

 

[ClemFandango]

These TV debates are utterly irrelevant as every one has made up their mind. As this thread clearly proves

 

[Pavilionaire]

I've mentioned it before but Labour are now conditioned to not give anything away when they are ahead in the polls.

In 2019 we saw them fully cost their spending plans in their manifesto - only to have it picked apart by our "fair and balanced" free press, Meanwhile the Tories manifesto was a pamphlet with as much policy and economic detail as you might expect to read in a Millwall match day magazine.

So now Labour won't provide detail because it'll be unreasonably ripped apart by the press, and the Cons don't either because, well, they don't have to. Today's debate is a result of that I'm afraid.

Starmer really disappointed me with his lack of answers on the pension tax and immigration in particular, but I'm not surprised he's keeping his cards close to his chest.

Yep, somebody needs to mention the words "stealth taxes" to Starmer, because the freeze on Personal Allowance and Higher Rate tax has been on Rishi's watch as PM or Chancellor. Starmer should have mentioned it more than he did.

Rishi also told a whopper that pensioners would be paying tax on their state pensions for the first time under Labour - it's already happening under the Tories, an inevitable consequence when you have a triple lock and frrozen Personal Allowance. I do Tax Returns, I see it and deal with queries from confused pensioners every week.

 

[Weststander]

Me no understand.

It was suggested that taxes will substantially increase, Starmer’s no fool, he pointedly didn’t deny it until an ill tempered comment near the end.

We won’t know until the manifesto’s, or perhaps even then with such a lead Labour won’t reveal all on fiscal policy. Parties usually do, giving the brilliant IFS the opportunity to cost it. In 2019 they ridiculed the Tory and Momentum financial plans.

 

[Berty23]

Yep, somebody needs to mention the words "stealth taxes" to Starmer, because the freeze on Personal Allowance and Higher Rate tax has been on Rishi's watch as PM or Chancellor. Starmer should have mentioned it more than he did.

Rishi also told a whopper that pensioners would be paying tax on their state pensions for the first time under Labour - it's already happening under the Tories, an inevitable consequence when you have a triple lock and frrozen Personal Allowance. I do Tax Returns, I see it and deal with queries from confused pensioners every week.

And fiscal drag. That is surely the biggest of all. Keeping thresholds the same is huge.

 

[Weststander]

These TV debates are utterly irrelevant as every one has made up their mind. As this thread clearly proves

These threads don’t contain swing voters. Instead the same old polarised Tory haters or Tory voters. With a smidgen of others.

 

[Bozza]

These threads don’t contain swing voters. Instead the same old polarised Tory haters or Tory voters. With a smidgen of others.

Indeed. If you drill into the Yougov data from their snap poll on the debate...

2019 Labour voters say…
Starmer did best: 75%
Sunak did best: 14%

2019 Tory voters say…
Sunak did best: 81%
Starmer did best: 14%

 

[Hugo Rune]

The Tories are going to be livid when they see the highlights on ITV news.

Very pro-Starmer because they edited out all the bits when the presenter was not in control.

 

[Weststander]

Indeed. If you drill into the Yougov data from their snap poll on the debate...

2019 Labour voters say…
Starmer did best: 75%
Sunak did best: 14%

2019 Tory voters say…
Sunak did best: 81%
Starmer did best: 14%

That’s why your commentary was interesting, as a LibDem?, you were not stuck in the two NSC trenches. This was a poor evening for Starmer, but he’ll probably win the next one. Needs to now ditch the DNA and dad’s trade, answer the audience question with firm policy.

 

[Pevenseagull]

These threads don’t contain swing voters. Instead the same old polarised Tory haters or Tory voters. With a smidgen of others.

IF the Tory party was a measured centre party with boring policies and a long track record of not being a bunch of corrupt self serving ****s and my local conservative MP had a track record of doing sterling constituency work that I felt was in favour of the betterment of society I would happily vote for them but this is not the case and I cannot even consider even wasting my time with punctuation in my heartfelt gut driven desire to be rid of the fuckers

 

[Weststander]

IF the Tory party was a measured centre party with boring policies and a long track record of not being a bunch of corrupt self serving ****s and my local conservative MP had a track record of doing sterling constituency work that I felt was in favour of the betterment of society I would happily vote for them but this is not the case and I cannot even consider even wasting my time with punctuation in my heartfelt gut driven desire to be rid of the fuckers

I look forward to the change too.

But I’d bet NSC was polarised and spiteful about politicians in 2010 and 2015, for example. A magnet for people who have very one eyed views, who never truly listen to another. The rarities here who do, are interesting people to chat with.

 

[Pevenseagull]

I look forward to the change too.

But I’d bet NSC was polarised and spiteful about politicians in 2010 and 2015, for example. A magnet for people who have very one eyed views, who never truly listen to another. The rarities here who do, are interesting people to chat with.

I wouldn't trust NSC to have a reasoned debate about how good Davy Propper's hair was.

 

[Pevenseagull]

These threads don’t contain swing voters. Instead the same old polarised Tory haters or Tory voters. With a smidgen of others.

In fairness it's been very difficult to be balanced since Thatcher's banger, 'There's No Such Thing As Society' (1987).

Really made things difficult for me.

 

[ozzygull]

IF the Tory party was a measured centre party with boring policies and a long track record of not being a bunch of corrupt self serving ****s and my local conservative MP had a track record of doing sterling constituency work that I felt was in favour of the betterment of society I would happily vote for them but this is not the case and I cannot even consider even wasting my time with punctuation in my heartfelt gut driven desire to be rid of the fuckers

Exactly, my MP since I moved to Reading, is John Deadwood. One of the biggest *unts that ever existed. I emailed him a couple of times about some issues, the condescending replies I received just confirmed what I already thought. It‘s an area where you could put a blue ribbon on a broom and it would get voted in. This election is different as the electoral boundaries have been redrawn and now mine will be a new constituency. So I am hoping we will get a chance to change.

I get why the people of Wokingham voted for the tories, it is a wealthy area and in the main people do OK, so sticking with the status quo ( not the band) works for them. If your doing ok and don’t care about anything or anyone else then the Tories seem ok.

l am not a particular one party voter but after the last 14 years of nothing but destruction under the conservative government. I want them gone and I don’t care how.

 

[Weststander]

In fairness it's been very difficult to be balanced since Thatcher's banger, 'There's No Such Thing As Society' (1987).

Really made things difficult for me.

It was well under way before then. I went to school on a certain Friday in May 79, my history teacher was bitterly disappointed about the GE. I was brought up in the 70’s with industrial strife on TV every evening. Two stubborn sides only with eyes for their interests, as their factories produced a pile of crap and then closed. Crushed by superior German and Japanese products. The Sellars film I’m Alright Jack wonderfully satires this. The UK was a rundown hovel in 1979. Punk and New Wave artists wrote about the bleakness, wasteland, violent police, racism.

 

[Zeberdi]

These TV debates are utterly irrelevant as every one has made up their mind. As this thread clearly proves

Yeah, I couldn’t be bothered - no interest at all in watching Sunak go head to head with Starmer. The Tories have had their chance over the past 14 years to convince me they deserve another term - they haven’t and a TV debate of both leaders speaking in soundbites and capital letters with contrived combative posturing won’t change my mind now if it hasn’t been changed already.

 

[Insel affe]

Yeah, I couldn’t be bothered - no interest at all in watching Sunak go head to head with Starmer. The Tories have had their chance over the past 14 years to convince me they deserve another term - they haven’t and a TV debate of both leaders speaking in soundbites and capital letters with contrived combative posturing won’t change my mind now if it hasn’t been changed already.

True, but as Sunak said labour have had 14 years to come up with……

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

These threads don’t contain swing voters. Instead the same old polarised Tory haters or Tory voters. With a smidgen of others.

Indeed. These TV debates are for the likes of Mrs T's dad, whose allegiance is available for nothing more than a kiss and a promise.

And he watches ITV.

It's a funny old game, getting elected.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It was well under way before then. I went to school on a certain Friday in May 79, my history teacher was bitterly disappointed about the GE. I was brought up in the 70’s with industrial strife on TV every evening. Two stubborn sides only with eyes for their interests, as their factories produced a pile of crap and then closed. Crushed by superior German and Japanese products. The Sellars film I’m Alright Jack wonderfully satires this. The UK was a rundown hovel in 1979. Punk and New Wave artists wrote about the bleakness, wasteland, violent police, racism.

The Sellars film was made in the early 60s and is a feeble bit of mockery.

The unions were mad and entitled, in the 60s and moreso in the 70s. And rather than 'two stubborn sides', labour and tory were both wedded to the 'post war consensus'. They were very similar in deed, if not in thought and word. The three day week and bathing by candle light was during the Heath tenure. Which galvanized Thatcher. Who f***ed up her 'legacy' by being a weird outsider, with needless obsessions, rather like Brian Clough, but not as good at football management.

Both parties could have been more bold in the 70s in particular, but you have to remember how uneducated, prejudiced and reactionary society was back then. It was quite an effort for most MPs, largely educated, apart from your Scargills and other union grifters, to talk down to the level of your average swing voter in language they could understand. The pound in your pocket. That's the only catch phrase I remember now. And something about pips squeaking. @Gwylan will be along in a minute to sort me out with a history revision tutorial.

Annoying as it my seem, the electorate and indeed the MPs are more sophisticated now than they ever were. The age of 'we're the masters now' from either 'side' is past. Masters for 5 minutes doesn't have much of a ring about it.

 

[Giraffe]

Just watched this. I’m going to try and be neutral which is easy as I’m not voting for either of them.

If you ignore where they are in the polls then it was a Sunak trouncing. He had all the big hits. Starmer added very little and you came away not having much of a clue what he stood for, other than he’d let his granny die rather than use private health care.

However that’s all he has to. Not drop any major bollock. Frankly a chair would beat the Tories at the moment. All Starmer has to do is nothing and he will win. Whereas Sunak has to throw everything at it. Not surprising given that that Sunak came out on top.