[Politics] Starmer v Sunak *** Official Match Thread ***

[WATFORD zero]

The £2000 tax lie is getting worse by the minute

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69088663

In our last couple of posts, we've been reporting on a letter sent by James Bowler - the chief Treasury civil servant - to Labour two days ago, saying that the Conservatives' assessment of their tax plans shouldn't be "presented as having been produced by the civil service". As you will expect, civil servants were not involved in the production or representation of the Conservative Party's document 'Labour Tax Rises' or in the calculation of the total figure used.

A prime minister who promised 'integrity, professionalism and accountability at every level' when he took over, is caught knowingly lying on National TV eight times. Apart from everything else, it's just completely and totally incompetent to think the truth wouldn't come out. And he was so proud of it, he kept repeating it

 

[GJN1]

think the treasury are trying to push back on whether they produced all the numbers or others involved.

the actual number is less important than what are the supposed commitments. probably all very worthwhile, are they funded with taxes or borrowing? there are a few promises floated for health with no apparent funding, given all the taxes promised not to raise.

And the evidence that Sunak was lying...

 

[Dorset Seagull]

We are at the stage where this is like 2 fighters in the ring. Starmer has won every round up until the election was called and is leading on points. Rishi needs to land a knockout blow in the last round to win and last night he didn't manage that. He is running out of time as the clock ticks down

 

[Berty23]

Always said I wouldn't mind paying another penny or two if it is directed at the services that need it ie Police, NHS ( although they need to cull the many layers of management which could release more money to frontline nurses ) Schools and care services which have been neglected

The proportion of managers in the nhs is lower than other industries though isn’t it? Which roles would you get rid of manager for? Maybe we should have heart surgeons running appointments or the midwives doing facilities? The head nurse sorting the IT. Hospitals are multi million pound organisations so you need people with skills to run them efficiently. Let clinicians do their jobs.

Similar in schools where a good IT bod could save a trust hundreds of thousands.

 

[WATFORD zero]

We are at the stage where this is like 2 fighters in the ring. Starmer has won every round up until the election was called and is leading on points. Rishi needs to land a knockout blow in the last round to win and last night he didn't manage that. He is running out of time as the clock ticks down

I think with what is coming out this morning, he may have well have landed a knockout punch. Just unfortunately for him, not on his opponent

 

[ROSM]

Then hopefully Starmer will expose that at the next debate.

Having scepticism, I think there’s something more subtle going on here. Labour have a put a red line on not raising some taxes, but not on hugely raising overall taxation.

Where’s the money coming from to improve the partly falling to bits NHS, transform the lives of the millions working just to exist, subsidise the millions of new affordable homes needed, fix our third world roads, a big pay rise for doctors? I haven’t mentioned VAT on schooling, as that’s ear marked for new teachers.

You heard it here first. Taxation will significantly increase.

He said no increases on vat ( except on private school fees) , ni or income tax. That leaves the many other taxes that don't impact the vast majority of people e.g non dom status etc to be looked at. For most people they are unlikely to be impacted by them

 

[pb21]

The £2000 tax lie is getting worse by the minute

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69088663

In our last couple of posts, we've been reporting on a letter sent by James Bowler - the chief Treasury civil servant - to Labour two days ago, saying that the Conservatives' assessment of their tax plans shouldn't be "presented as having been produced by the civil service". As you will expect, civil servants were not involved in the production or representation of the Conservative Party's document 'Labour Tax Rises' or in the calculation of the total figure used.

A prime minister who promised 'integrity, professionalism and accountability at every level' when he took over, is caught knowingly lying on National TV eight times. Apart from everything else, it's just completely and totally incompetent to think the truth wouldn't come out. And he was so proud of it, he kept repeating it

This is straight out of the Johnson playbook, his stain lingers on. Thought Sunak would be better than this, but it seems not.

 

[ROSM]

I think with what is coming out this morning, he may have well have landed a knockout punch. Just unfortunately for him, not on his opponent

I think the analogy is that he has failed his drug test

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Sunak on points

 

[studio150]

Who would have thought an integrity shortage in the Conservative Party.

 

[kevo]

The £2000 tax lie is getting worse by the minute

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69088663

In our last couple of posts, we've been reporting on a letter sent by James Bowler - the chief Treasury civil servant - to Labour two days ago, saying that the Conservatives' assessment of their tax plans shouldn't be "presented as having been produced by the civil service". As you will expect, civil servants were not involved in the production or representation of the Conservative Party's document 'Labour Tax Rises' or in the calculation of the total figure used.

A prime minister who promised 'integrity, professionalism and accountability at every level' when he took over, is caught knowingly lying on National TV eight times. Apart from everything else, it's just completely and totally incompetent to think the truth wouldn't come out. And he was so proud of it, he kept repeating it

Same old Tories, always lying.

 

[Jim in the West]

It's like the £350m on the bus - it was obviously a lie, but enough people believed it. The Tories know how to play dirty, and they couldn't care less if they lie relentlessly to get their way. It makes you sick.

 

[Machiavelli]

The bit the blows some minds is that the public are on balance no more supportive of tax cuts than they are tax rises. If anything they would prefer tax rises if it meant better public services.

It's far more substantial than you claim. Note also that this is not only a highly respected and longitudinal survey, it also asks the right question through combining (rather than separating) the issue of taxation and public services:

BSA 40: Role and responsibilities of government | National Centre for Social Research

Have voters attitudes changed in respect to the role and size of government?

natcen.ac.uk

 

[Weststander]

I will precis what i am about to say that I voted Tory in 2019, but am undecided now. I cannot see a logical reason to vote for them again, but have yet to be convinced by any of the other candidates thus far.



Watching the debate last night, it struck me that Sunak is using the tried & tested "repeat a lie often enough and it sticks" philosophy. To me, he came across as rude, disrespectful and the moderator needed to rein him in more. Starmer's style is not suited to these type of debates, but I have to say that when he was allowed to make a point, he made it count (NHS waiting lists being the prime example, as well as the remark of a vote for the Tories is like handing an arsonist his matches back."



From what I can see, the Tory policy is centred around the pensioner vote - they have nothing else to draw down on after 14 years of ruining this country. They didnt bring inflation down - market forces did. they havent resolved the NHS pay disputes - the unions did not agree to them at all (and as an aside, the promise of the Govt ensuring that the pay review in April would be sped through has fallen by the wayside). They didnt bring the energy prices down - market forces did (and they are forecast to go back up again in October just as people need to use it again - imagine my shock). Sunak was banging on about furlough, which is fine for those who were paid to stay at home during COVID, while others had no choice but to work and put ourselves at risk (being an NHS worker, I fall into this category). And every taxpayer is paying for this even now - something he conveniently did not say. The facts are that the cost of living is higher than it has been for years - and this has happened on their watch., I don't trust them to resolve this at all, as all they care about is lining their own pockets and being slaves to their rich donors.



As for Starmer, I have never voted Labour before. As a person, I find him more trustworthy and humble than Sunak is. I an unsure how Labour will make my life better, as the country is broken and the economy is just bereft of money (possibly lop-sided in favour of the select few). My current view is they surely wont make as big a mess of it as the Tories have - but it is a very low bar to start from.

Furlough and its huge cost was a necessity in every Western economy. Without it countless businesses would’ve gone under or made sweeping redundancies. Every party and union agreed, only the right wing and off-gridders in their lunchtime opposed it.

But it did cause envy from some who had to work. Mrs.W worked on CV19 wards with the full protective clothing, unpleasant, but she just had to do it.

I’m more interested in what Labour will do for 1/3 of the country? struggling to survive. I’ve a mate just turned 50 in a low paid sector. His rent has just increased from £1,250 to £1,800. Where’s the hope? Their ilk have had no serious help for a long time.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think with what is coming out this morning, he may have well have landed a knockout punch. Just unfortunately for him, not on his opponent

Don't think the debates will have that much effect.

 

[A mex eyecan]

Same old Tories, always lying.

yup.You can always tell when a politician is lying as they will be moving their lips …

No wonder the public just lose hope.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

It looks like Starmer has given Sunak more than enough rope to hang himself. Suspect the opening gambit for the next debate from Starmer will be pointing out that Sunak lied his arse off and will hold up the letter from the treasury as proof. Better to lose the first debate and to win the second, as it looks like sunak has used most of his ammo in the first.

 

[Mellotron]

“Very briefly”, “very quickly”, “Ok, ok, ok”.

Fantastic way for us mere mortals to become informed of our leaders ideas and solutions.

As quickly and as briefly as possible, but ensuring every topic is referenced in order to look like you (ITV) have done a good and comprehensive job.

Utter gash.

This. Made it practically unwatchable. Felt like they just wanted to get quick soundbites rather than an actual genuine, nuanced debate.

Dreadful structure.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

We are at the stage where this is like 2 fighters in the ring. Starmer has won every round up until the election was called and is leading on points. Rishi needs to land a knockout blow in the last round to win and last night he didn't manage that. He is running out of time as the clock ticks down

...and given the letter regarding his £2000 tax claims he has now failed a drugs test.

 

[Bodian]

Sunak on points

Maybe overturned by VAR.