Southern Rail STRIKE details

[Ernest]

Immediately off the top of my head, London Road, Moulsecoomb, Falmer and Lewes don't have CCTV. In fact, I'm not sure hardly any on Coastway East and Coastway West stations have them.

Anyone...?

None of the Coast East or West has facilities or is cleared for DOO working and won't be for a considerable amount of time

 

[beorhthelm]

From what I was reading from both sides, and this is how I understand it, the RMT were prepared to discuss DOO on Brighton to London routes.

However, Southern wish to make DOO across their entire network (all trains on all stations), and - as I understand it - there are some stations on the East and West Coastway lines, and some London suburban stations, which are not considered safe for a driver to make the decision as to when to close the doors. Where the technology is not in place, it's not going to be put in place.

DOO is already in place on Brighton to London for GX and Thameslink. DOO is also in place on Southern Metro services. The technology will need to be put in place where it is needed, or its not ready for DOO, so this is not an issue. example, Uckfield line not being DOO.

The TOC-owned safety board advised that in order for a driver to make a decision on certain stations, he/she would have to leave the cab and walk down the platform. This, it would seem, is not on such an issue on Brighton to London routes, but is on more suburban and rural stations.

Seeing as staff are also being cut back on stations, I'm thinking of something like Platform 2 at Lewes Station (the platform on which you jump on a train to get to London), where the curve of the platform means that the driver would have to walk a good six carriages down the platform of a 12-carriage train to see when it's safe to leave. This will only ever cause delays.

cameras are present on platform and on every train carriage. when does the driver have to leave the cab under normal operation on existing DOO trains? never. staff arent officially being reduced at stations (we'll see how that works out...), but its obvious that busy stations will retain platform staff while quiet stations already have lost staff. Lewes isnt going to lose the platform staff anytime soon.

 

[Deadly Danson]

And of course, just a reminder that in direct contravention of the Equality Act 2010 any passengers in a wheelchair will no longer be able to turn up and board a train if it doesn't have a guard. They will have to give 24 hours notice. Nice, just so GTR can save a few pennies.

 

[Ernest]

DOO is already in place on Brighton to London for GX and Thameslink. DOO is also in place on Southern Metro services. The technology will need to be put in place where it is needed, or its not ready for DOO, so this is not an issue. example, Uckfield line not being DOO.



cameras are present on platform and on every train carriage. when does the driver have to leave the cab under normal operation? never. staff arent officially being reduced at stations (we'll see how that works out...), but its obvious that busy stations will retain platform staff while quiet stations already have lost staff. Lewes isnt going to lose the platform staff anytime soon.

You want to check the proposals to get rid of all station staff and redeploy them

 

[wakeytom]

The Hayes & Harlington accident , when an old lady was dragged down a platform in the air with her arm trapped in the door, shows how reliable the door sensors and the CCTV despatch procedure by the Driver is

How does it work on the underground, I have never seen a conductor on a train there and people are not being constantly dragged down the tracks. Much busier trains and people piling on when the doors are closing

 

[Thunder Bolt]

And of course, just a reminder that in direct contravention of the Equality Act 2010 any passengers in a wheelchair will no longer be able to turn up and board a train if it doesn't have a guard. They will have to give 24 hours notice. Nice, just so GTR can save a few pennies.

This.

 

[Deadly Danson]

DOO is already in place on Brighton to London for GX and Thameslink. DOO is also in place on Southern Metro services. The technology will need to be put in place where it is needed, or its not ready for DOO, so this is not an issue. example, Uckfield line not being DOO.



cameras are present on platform and on every train carriage. when does the driver have to leave the cab under normal operation? never. staff arent officially being reduced at stations (we'll see how that works out...), but its obvious that busy stations will retain platform staff while quiet stations already have lost staff. Lewes isnt going to lose the platform staff anytime soon.

East and West coast driving is VERY different with the effects of the sun. Last week, coming back from Portsmouth will a low sun (and a guard) I watched my cameras at each station as he shut the doors. Due to the impact of the low sun, if I didn't have a guard that train would have been cancelled as it was impossible to see clearly (the sun flares the camera to the point where its virtually pointless) and for me to dispatch the train safely. And I promise I'm not being dramatic - there is literally no way that service could have proceeded safely DOO.

 

[beorhthelm]

There are quite a few stations that are unmanned, like Newhaven, where a wheelchair user, would need a guard, to operate the ramp.

this in itself should be grounds upon which there needs to be a mandatory second staff. i wonder how Southern currently deal with wheelchair access on some DOO services, do they just not stop at unmanned stations (cant be the case in London metro)?

 

[beorhthelm]

East and West coast driving is VERY different with the effects of the sun. Last week, coming back from Portsmouth will a low sun (and a guard) I watched my cameras at each station as he shut the doors. Due to the impact of the low sun, if I didn't have a guard that train would have been cancelled as it was impossible to see clearly (the sun flares the camera to the point where its virtually pointless) and for me to dispatch the train safely. And I promise I'm not being dramatic - there is literally no way that service could have proceeded safely DOO.

a fair point. though is a technical problem that can be solved, its not beyond the wit of man to mount suitable shielding or filters to prevent this problm where it occurs. seems odd that they have not already address it yet if expecting to go live soon.

 

[beorhthelm]

You want to check the proposals to get rid of all station staff and redeploy them

you are of course refering to ticket office staff, being redeployed to the platform. something which i also disagree with certainly at major stations like Lewes.

 

[Deadly Danson]

a fair point. though is a technical problem that can be solved, its not beyond the wit of man to mount suitable shielding or filters to prevent this problm where it occurs. seems odd that they have not already address it yet if expecting to go live soon.

I'm sure somehow it is possible and,no they are nowhere near ready - it's almost as though they haven't thought it through but of course we know that couldn't possibly be the case. Again, I would have to ask why on earth would Southern go to all this trouble to make the service less safe when the system they have already is perfectly good. It certainly isn't to "modernise" the railway. And once again, it's the Dft who are behind it all so that all future franchises can go DOO and that's why it's a fight worth fighting.

 

[maltaseagull]

Most of the rolling stock Southern are using is pretty new now but think there is more to it than just closing doors as [MENTION=23140]Albion[/MENTION] Roar has stated - knowing when to shut the doors for example (packed carriages, people slow in getting on for any reason such as immobility etc), inability for the driver to be able to see the whole train (loads of platforms are curved, the cctv systems aren't always great) and then if there is any kind of incident on the train the driver will have to deal with it. Sure one of our resident NSC train crew will be able to add to this.....

I was in Malta a couple of weeks ago. The standard of driving is pretty poor

Fair point. I hadn't thought about difficulty in getting on/off and yes the driving is not poor it's frigging appalling.
We thought that once they joined the EU and had proper driving tests, the standard would improve but we were wrong.

Never drive in Malta anywhere after midnight as 90% of drivers are pissed. Last Saturday 2 cars overturned when the driver "lost control" one was 4.30 am and the other was 5.00 am I think. No breath tests - no enforcement.
Rule of the road is might is right!

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'm sure somehow it is possible and,no they are nowhere near ready - it's almost as though they haven't thought it through but of course we know that couldn't possibly be the case. Again, I would have to ask why on earth would Southern go to all this trouble to make the service less safe when the system they have already is perfectly good. It certainly isn't to "modernise" the railway. And once again, it's the Dft who are behind it all so that all future franchises can go DOO and that's why it's a fight worth fighting.

Thank you for your insights on this thread. It is good to hear someone from within the industry arguing your case so eloquently. I can't help but think that people who don't work in the railways are simply taking default pro or anti government/Union positions based on not very much at all. My question to you though is that if as you say this is a Government inspired policy then have you considered what you will do if you lose your fight ? This outcome is probably the most likely one in my opinion. Where does that leave workers who believe the changes to be unsafe ?

 

[dazzer6666]

Fair point. I hadn't thought about difficulty in getting on/off and yes the driving is not poor it's frigging appalling.
We thought that once they joined the EU and had proper driving tests, the standard would improve but we were wrong.

Never drive in Malta anywhere after midnight as 90% of drivers are pissed. Last Saturday 2 cars overturned when the driver "lost control" one was 4.30 am and the other was 5.00 am I think. No breath tests - no enforcement.
Rule of the road is might is right!

More or less what my taxi driver said, as he spoke down the phone to his mate and swigged from his bottle of water whilst going round a roundabout.............................well I assume it was water.............

 

[Leekbrookgull]

I think you're only seeing what you want to see.

As someone who has commuted, Horton's presentation of SASTA's position comes across as very sensible to me:

1. There will be a second person on the train as is the case now.
2. ...unless there is disruption to the service.

So, under SASTA's proposals, if I'm sitting on the 17:47 at London Bridge wanting to come home, that train could leave if the second member of staff was unable to be on board, perhaps because of a late-running inbound service or similar. Perhaps that second person could be picked up at the first stop, East Croydon.

RMT want me, and hundreds of other Mums and Dads who just wish to be at home to put their kids to bed and football supporters who want to make kick-off, to have to wait or have our service cancelled.

I'm with Horton and SASTA based on that clip.

Well i am not,this is far more than DOO trains Southern etc are doing the governments dirty work.

 

[Ernest]

you are of course refering to ticket office staff, being redeployed to the platform. something which i also disagree with certainly at major stations like Lewes.

The proposals affect all station staff

 

[Deadly Danson]

Thank you for your insights on this thread. It is good to hear someone from within the industry arguing your case so eloquently. I can't help but think that people who don't work in the railways are simply taking default pro or anti government/Union positions based on not very much at all. My question to you though is that if as you say this is a Government inspired policy then have you considered what you will do if you lose your fight ? This outcome is probably the most likely one in my opinion. Where does that leave workers who believe the changes to be unsafe ?

Thank you for your kind words. In all honesty if I wasn't in the industry I'd struggle to believe that the Dft and GTR could be quite determined to push through such an unnecessary policy and I know these are empty words for the passengers who are genuinely suffering from such an appalling service but I take absolutely no joy in witnessing their problems getting around - as I've said a few times the only pride a driver can take in his job is to get passengers to their destination safely and on time but circumstances have made this virtually impossible.
I answered this somewhere else this week but if we lose the fight then ultimately we would have to lump it. Again, it's not difficult for me to go DOO, I don't want more money for it but I fundamentally believe it is a less safe method of working - particularly nowadays with the volume of passengers. If drivers do go on strike - and I would do it reluctantly but determinedly, then it may well be that the situation resolves itself fairly quickly as GTR wouldn't really be able to run any kind of service without drivers - hence GTR taking Aslef to court in a desperate attempt to stop us striking. Although I have no doubt that Wilkinson and his cronies in the Dft have a plan for us to - much like the bullying tactics they employed on the guards.

 

[Deadly Danson]

I think you're only seeing what you want to see.

As someone who has commuted, Horton's presentation of SASTA's position comes across as very sensible to me:

1. There will be a second person on the train as is the case now.
2. ...unless there is disruption to the service.

So, under SASTA's proposals, if I'm sitting on the 17:47 at London Bridge wanting to come home, that train could leave if the second member of staff was unable to be on board, perhaps because of a late-running inbound service or similar. Perhaps that second person could be picked up at the first stop, East Croydon.

RMT want me, and hundreds of other Mums and Dads who just wish to be at home to put their kids to bed and football supporters who want to make kick-off, to have to wait or have our service cancelled.

I'm with Horton and SASTA based on that clip.

But when isn't there disruption to the service? This would undeniably happen every single day and gradually bit by bit the guards wouldn't be needed any more. Anyway, a sensible compromise would be to keep the guard and driver on the same diagram each day so they are always together. There, solves that problem. Easy but again GTR won't do this because they want to erode the guards role and the Dft want them to do this so all future franchises can accommodate DOO.

 

[beorhthelm]

But when isn't there disruption to the service? This would undeniably happen every single day and gradually bit by bit the guards wouldn't be needed any more. Anyway, a sensible compromise would be to keep the guard and driver on the same diagram each day so they are always together. There, solves that problem. Easy but again GTR won't do this because they want to erode the guards role and the Dft want them to do this so all future franchises can accommodate DOO.

now heres a question, why arent the guard and driver teamed?

 

[Pistol Pete]

I am hoping for a bit of help from the NSC commuters, I have a meeting at London Bridge on Wednesday at 10.00 a.m. Now I am not a regular train user and I was wondering what time I should leave Shoreham or would be better to go straight from Brighton. I'm not to fussed about being to early, just hoping for some good advice?