Southern Rail STRIKE details

[Hotchilidog]

Blimey! A long time since I've heard anything worthwhile on the Today programme. I wonder if Justin Webb is a commuter?

 

[Bozza]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37011066
Some very good questioning and some awful politician-like refusal to answer the question from Horton. Very much worth a watch.

I think you're only seeing what you want to see.

As someone who has commuted, Horton's presentation of SASTA's position comes across as very sensible to me:

1. There will be a second person on the train as is the case now.
2. ...unless there is disruption to the service.

So, under SASTA's proposals, if I'm sitting on the 17:47 at London Bridge wanting to come home, that train could leave if the second member of staff was unable to be on board, perhaps because of a late-running inbound service or similar. Perhaps that second person could be picked up at the first stop, East Croydon.

RMT want me, and hundreds of other Mums and Dads who just wish to be at home to put their kids to bed and football supporters who want to make kick-off, to have to wait or have our service cancelled.

I'm with Horton and SASTA based on that clip.

 

[albionite]

I think you're only seeing what you want to see.

As someone who has commuted, Horton's presentation of SASTA's position comes across as very sensible to me:

1. There will be a second person on the train as is the case now.
2. ...unless there is disruption to the service.

So, under SASTA's proposals, if I'm sitting on the 17:47 at London Bridge wanting to come home, that train could leave if the second member of staff was unable to be on board, perhaps because of a late-running inbound service or similar. Perhaps that second person could be picked up at the first stop, East Croydon.

RMT want me, and hundreds of other Mums and Dads who just wish to be at home to put their kids to bed and football supporters who want to make kick-off, to have to wait or have our service cancelled.

I'm with Horton and SASTA based on that clip.

I think your only seeing what you want to see, that second person will not stay on the train for long.

 

[Bozza]

I think your only seeing what you want to see, that second person will not stay on the train for long.

This dispute isn't about that though, is it? It's that it is unsafe for the driver to open/close doors.

Beyond that, why were there no protestations when other operators and services went DOO, and how has safety been impacted as a result? Keen to read this, so take a little while to dig out the detail if required.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Pretty much what I heard. There is nothing about Southern's track record that leads to me to believe that this is not the case. Once it has been establisehd that the second person is no longer required on the train they will go.

Given that Southern have a history of not employing adequate numbers of staff to run their trains, it's fairly obvious that as soon as the signals start to fail or OBS's miss their connecting trains (aka 'disruption') then the second person will be phased out.

 

[Bozza]

Pretty much what I heard. There is nothing about Southern's track record that leads to me to believe that this is not the case. Once it has been establisehd that the second person is no longer required on the train they will go.

Given that Southern have a history of not employing adequate numbers of staff to run their trains, it's fairly obvious that as soon as the signals start to fail or OBS's miss their connecting trains (aka 'disruption') then the second person will be phased out.

Happy for you to pick this one up then if you like:

Why were there no protestations when other operators and services went DOO, and how has safety been impacted as a result? Keen to read this, so take a little while to dig out the detail if required.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Do these other operators which run DOO trains do so on 12 carriage formations ?

Or are they the short 2/3/4 carriage setups ?

 

[Bozza]

Maybe it's me and I'm just not understanding this properly. Delighted to be corrected, if so...

1. Do Thameslink and/or Gatwick Express services, travelling the very same line as some Southern services, travel as DOO?
2. Did the RMT and/or other unions complain and strike when this was introduced?
3. What was the result of the actions from 2 above?
4. Are Thameslink and Gatwick Express DOO services considered unsafe?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Sky News going LARGE with the story this afternoon, with the strapline 'END OF THE LINE FOR SOUTHERN?'

 

[DTES]

...that second person will not stay on the train for long.

This doesn't really answer the point though, does it?

I'm fortunate in that my commute to/from work is on Southeastern trains, not Southern. Put me in the position Bozza mentions (albeit Charing Cross rather than London Bridge). On Southeastern, there are no guards and the drivers operate the doors (HS1 may be an exception, but that's not my line...)

1) I don't have to sit around waiting for this late guard, and so I get home to put the kids to bed. Bozza meanwhile is still sat in London and missed his kids for the night.
2) I have never seen a safety issue on any of my trains to/from work caused by the drivers operating the doors.

Genuine questions - why is Southern different; why are their trains more unsafe when no guard is onboard?

 

[Carrot Cruncher]

Maybe it's me and I'm just not understanding this properly. Delighted to be corrected, if so...

1. Do Thameslink and/or Gatwick Express services, travelling the very same line as some Southern services, travel as DOO?
2. Did the RMT and/or other unions complain and strike when this was introduced?
3. What was the result of the actions from 2 above?
4. Are Thameslink and Gatwick Express DOO services considered unsafe?

Whilst I am very anti-Southern/DfT, I don't think those are unreasonable questions to ask.

 

[Bozza]

This doesn't really answer the point though, does it?

I'm fortunate in that my commute to/from work is on Southeastern trains, not Southern. Put me in the position Bozza mentions (albeit Charing Cross rather than London Bridge). On Southeastern, there are no guards and the drivers operate the doors (HS1 may be an exception, but that's not my line...)

1) I don't have to sit around waiting for this late guard, and so I get home to put the kids to bed. Bozza meanwhile is still sat in London and missed his kids for the night.
2) I have never seen a safety issue on any of my trains to/from work caused by the drivers operating the doors.

Genuine questions - why is Southern different; why are their trains more unsafe when no guard is onboard?

And why could the Thameslink train leave London without a second person on board, but the Southern one can't?

Whilst I am very anti-Southern/DfT, I don't think those are unreasonable questions to ask.

I don't want the trains used by me, my family and friends to be unsafe, I just want someone to explain to me why other trains running the same way are safe and no one protested about them. It should be easy if this is the main thrust of your disagreement.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There are quite a few stations that are unmanned, like Newhaven, where a wheelchair user, would need a guard, to operate the ramp.

 

[The Albion Roar]

Maybe it's me and I'm just not understanding this properly. Delighted to be corrected, if so...

1. Do Thameslink and/or Gatwick Express services, travelling the very same line as some Southern services, travel as DOO?
2. Did the RMT and/or other unions complain and strike when this was introduced?
3. What was the result of the actions from 2 above?
4. Are Thameslink and Gatwick Express DOO services considered unsafe?

From what I was reading from both sides, and this is how I understand it, the RMT were prepared to discuss DOO on Brighton to London routes.

However, Southern wish to make DOO across their entire network (all trains on all stations), and - as I understand it - there are some stations on the East and West Coastway lines, and some London suburban stations, which are not considered safe for a driver to make the decision as to when to close the doors. Where the technology is not in place, it's not going to be put in place.

The TOC-owned safety board advised that in order for a driver to make a decision on certain stations, he/she would have to leave the cab and walk down the platform. This, it would seem, is not on such an issue on Brighton to London routes, but is on more suburban and rural stations.

Seeing as staff are also being cut back on stations, I'm thinking of something like Platform 2 at Lewes Station (the platform on which you jump on a train to get to London), where the curve of the platform means that the driver would have to walk a good six carriages down the platform of a 12-carriage train to see when it's safe to leave. This will only ever cause delays.

That's how I read it.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Happy for you to pick this one up then if you like:

Why were there no protestations when other operators and services went DOO, and how has safety been impacted as a result? Keen to read this, so take a little while to dig out the detail if required.

It is a reasonable question certainly so am happy to take this up with my limited historical knowledge. (I think [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] answered this question very early in this thread and he has more knowledge on this than me) Basically it's been a creeping increase in DOO as time has gone on - so successive deals were made to increase introduce DOO, then increase it from 4 to 8 car, then to 10 car etc. Also, as some franchises were incorporated into other franchises DOO spread. Honestly, I think the RMT and Aslef, while I believe they did protest at each increase, let the railway down by accepting each increase. The last deal we did we accepted that we would drive 12 coach trains in times of agreed disruption only. This was a mistake in my opinion as sure enough, GTR now say that if we can drive 12 car trains in disruption why can't we do it all the time - incidentally one very good reason not to believe Southern when they say guards only won't be on trains during disruption. Us drivers were also to blame in allowing this to go through- there's no use trying to rewrite history.
I think we have gone through all the reasons why DOO is less safe than having a second safety critically on this thread and why, when more and more people are using an ever more crowded railway with ever longer trains it would be very wise not to remove any more safety measures. Also on this thread we have shown all the increases in incidents where DOO have been a factor and the rise of anti social behaviour on trains that are known to be DOO. @TheAlbionRoar is also right with his comments further down the page.

 

[maltaseagull]

From what I was reading from both sides, and this is how I understand it, the RMT were prepared to discuss DOO on Brighton to London routes.

However, Southern wish to make DOO across their entire network (all trains on all stations), and - as I understand it - there are some stations on the East and West Coastway lines, and some London suburban stations, which are not considered safe for a driver to make the decision as to when to close the doors. Where the technology is not in place, it's not going to be put in place.

The TOC-owned safety board advised that in order for a driver to make a decision on certain stations, he/she would have to leave the cab and walk down the platform. This, it would seem, is not on such an issue on Brighton to London routes, but is on more suburban and rural stations.

Seeing as staff are also being cut back on stations, I'm thinking of something like Platform 2 at Lewes Station (the platform on which you jump on a train to get to London), where the curve of the platform means that the driver would have to walk a good six carriages down the platform of a 12-carriage train to see when it's safe to leave. This will only ever cause delays.

That's how I read it.

I am not a train user as we don't have them here! But my car has a warning sensor if the doors aren't shut! Surely modern trains have this? Or are they using old rolling stock with the doors you have to open by sliding the window down and opening from the outside?

 

[dazzer6666]

I am not a train user as we don't have them here! But my car has a warning sensor if the doors aren't shut! Surely modern trains have this? Or are they using old rolling stock with the doors you have to open by sliding the window down and opening from the outside?

Most of the rolling stock Southern are using is pretty new now but think there is more to it than just closing doors as [MENTION=23140]Albion[/MENTION] Roar has stated - knowing when to shut the doors for example (packed carriages, people slow in getting on for any reason such as immobility etc), inability for the driver to be able to see the whole train (loads of platforms are curved, the cctv systems aren't always great) and then if there is any kind of incident on the train the driver will have to deal with it. Sure one of our resident NSC train crew will be able to add to this.....

I was in Malta a couple of weeks ago. The standard of driving is pretty poor

 

[DTES]

From what I was reading from both sides, and this is how I understand it, the RMT were prepared to discuss DOO on Brighton to London routes.

However, Southern wish to make DOO across their entire network (all trains on all stations), and - as I understand it - there are some stations on the East and West Coastway lines, and some London suburban stations, which are not considered safe for a driver to make the decision as to when to close the doors. Where the technology is not in place, it's not going to be put in place.

The TOC-owned safety board advised that in order for a driver to make a decision on certain stations, he/she would have to leave the cab and walk down the platform. This, it would seem, is not on such an issue on Brighton to London routes, but is on more suburban and rural stations.

Seeing as staff are also being cut back on stations, I'm thinking of something like Platform 2 at Lewes Station (the platform on which you jump on a train to get to London), where the curve of the platform means that the driver would have to walk a good six carriages down the platform of a 12-carriage train to see when it's safe to leave. This will only ever cause delays.

That's how I read it.

Thanks TAR.

There are curved platforms on Southeastern too - e.g. my station Lewisham has curved platforms. The driver judges when it's clear to go using the CCTV monitors at their end of the platform (or 'Train Dispatch Monitors' as they seem to call them). Do Southern platforms not have these, or is the argument that they are insufficient?

 

[The Albion Roar]

Thanks TAR.

There are curved platforms on Southeastern too - e.g. my station Lewisham has curved platforms. The driver judges when it's clear to go using the CCTV monitors at their end of the platform (or 'Train Dispatch Monitors' as they seem to call them). Do Southern platforms not have these, or is the argument that they are insufficient?

Immediately off the top of my head, London Road, Moulsecoomb, Falmer and Lewes don't have CCTV. In fact, I'm not sure hardly any on Coastway East and Coastway West stations have them.

Anyone...?

 

[Ernest]

I am not a train user as we don't have them here! But my car has a warning sensor if the doors aren't shut! Surely modern trains have this? Or are they using old rolling stock with the doors you have to open by sliding the window down and opening from the outside?

The Hayes & Harlington accident , when an old lady was dragged down a platform in the air with her arm trapped in the door, shows how reliable the door sensors and the CCTV despatch procedure by the Driver is