[Politics] Sir Keir Starmer’s route to Number 10

[clapham_gull]

You must clearly have amnesia, labour left a note in the treasury draw advising there is no more money when they last left office, having trashed the economy

I haven't amnesia, just a knowledge of why that note was written. There was a long running joke in Westminster about leaving such a letter (often a joke) in a drawer which the Tories knew very well, they had left them themselves. The practice goes back decades.

The Tories decided to publicise it, that's all.

Being a party of such good faith and with a sense of tradition, I'm sure they will now leave a similar letter when they leave office in in years time.

"Sorry about the billions wasted on PPE, here is a list of my personal friends telephone numbers you may wish to follow up..."

 

[clapham_gull]

..but it’ll hurt a lot of people who I can tell you aren’t wealthy, posh or elitist.

Understood, but this lot have hurt a lot of people who aren’t wealthy, posh or elitist without a safety net of state education.

That's not a moral or political point, just an observation.

As you know, I look at all these strategically. It won't damage their chances at the next election. Starmer's only issue is controlling the harder left who will frighten off the floating vote.

 

[Ooh it’s a corner]

Not prepared to admit Labour did exactly what Conservatives did to the economy, comrade?

The last 6 or 7 years has seen the most corrupt and incompetent government in all our lifetimes Shirley - I didn’t think things could be worse than the Thatcher years but this last period has been the absolute bottom of the barrel. Of course there have been poor Labour administrations too but this lot……appalling, corrupt, evil imo

 

[Beach Hut]

The last 6 or 7 years has seen the most corrupt and incompetent government in all our lifetimes Shirley - I didn’t think things could be worse than the Thatcher years but this last period has been the absolute bottom of the barrel. Of course there have been poor Labour administrations too but this lot……appalling, corrupt, evil imo

I wouldn't say 6 or 7 years, the mess started with Boris who simply believed he was above the law of which no-one is.

 

[Weststander]

Understood, but this lot have hurt a lot of people who aren’t wealthy, posh or elitist without a safety net of state education.

That's not a moral or political point, just an observation.

As you know, I look at all these strategically. It won't damage their chances at the next election. Starmer's only issue is controlling the harder left who will frighten off the floating vote.

I look at that too, all parties. Interesting to see a Tory party power struggle over the last couple of years, JRM et al with tunnel vision for winning even if it means perhaps socialist taxation for 10 years, talk about wood for the trees.

Starmer needs uncompromising aides to contain the bitter left within, who’ll try to ruin his first term. Each with some unsavoury sides, but Blair had Campbell, Mandelson and some tough cookies such as John Reid who could keep control.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

it’s not spite tax as you say, it’s fairness.
Even if you didn’t levy vat on the fees is it right that they don’t pay vat on the services that they employ and engage?
Let’s argue for example the millions spent on infrastructure, furnishings etc etc, should they be able to claim back the vat on these items?

Trouble is, fairness is a double-edged sword. I’ve no skin in this game but I can see why both the private schools and Labour supporters would each consider the current tax situation, and the proposed changes, to be 'unfair' on one side or the other. I saw Mick Lynch on TV a while ago saying how 'unfair' the government were being for not intervening in the rail dispute. I reflected on how the unions' behaviour has caused so much misery to people who really don’t deserve it, and whether that was fair on them. So let’s not use the word fairness without defining very clearly what we mean by it, and whether fairness isn’t a zero sum game ie that by trying to enforce fairness for one side doesn’t simply reduce it for others.

 

[clapham_gull]

Not prepared to admit Labour did exactly what Conservatives did to the economy, comrade?

I'm not a supporter of either comrade, both suffered from external events beyond their control.

With Labour the financial crash and the Conservatives the global pandemic.

However, both created an environment (taking their eye off the ball) where the damage was far worse than it could have been.

The difference with the Tories over the last decade is they have been reacting to their own self made fucks ups with a revolving door of leaders elected by their members.

 

[Beach Hut]

The difference with the Tories over the last decade is they have reacting to their own self made fucks ups with a revolving door of leaders elected by their members.

As Victor Meldrew said "I don't believe it", we actually politically agree on something

 

[A mex eyecan]

Trouble is, fairness is a double-edged sword. I’ve no skin in this game but I can see why both the private schools and Labour supporters would each consider the current tax situation, and the proposed changes, to be 'unfair' on one side or the other. I saw Mick Lynch on TV a while ago saying how 'unfair' the government were being for not intervening in the rail dispute. I reflected on how the unions' behaviour has caused so much misery to people who really don’t deserve it, and whether that was fair on them. So let’s not use the word fairness without defining very clearly what we mean by it, and whether fairness isn’t a zero sum game ie that by trying to enforce fairness for one side doesn’t simply reduce it for others.

good point well presented.

 

[clapham_gull]

I look at that too, all parties. Interesting to see a Tory party power struggle over the last couple of years, JRM et al with tunnel vision for winning even if it means perhaps socialist taxation for 10 years, talk about wood for the trees.

Starmer needs uncompromising aides to contain the bitter left within, who’ll try to ruin his first term. Each with some unsavoury sides, but Blair had Campbell, Mandelson and some tough cookies such as John Reid who could keep control.

And John Prescott. Was there for a reason, not great in front of a camera but did a remarkable job behind the scenes.

I suspect the Tories "thought" Lee Anderson would perform a similar role.....

 

[clapham_gull]

The last 6 or 7 years has seen the most corrupt and incompetent government in all our lifetimes Shirley - I didn’t think things could be worse than the Thatcher years but this last period has been the absolute bottom of the barrel. Of course there have been poor Labour administrations too but this lot……appalling, corrupt, evil imo

Not sure the Thatcher years were incompetent, however ideologically opposed you/I may be. That said the Falklands was a cock up, they could have avoided.

But yes in the last few years. Off the scale.

The pandemic exposed them. I was praying for a Government of national unity where anyone like John Major, Gordon Brown (and a variety of others) would come back and take control.

 

[Weststander]

And John Prescott. Was there for a reason, not great in front of a camera but did a remarkable job behind the scenes.

I suspect the Tories "thought" Lee Anderson would perform a similar role.....

How can we forget that left jab .

 

[peterward]

When Labour gets in, I'd like for them to do what the Tories did by bringing in Baron David Frost from the Lords to serve in government.

And to bring back in Lord David Blunkett.

He may be mid 70's, but I have nothing but admiration for the man, not for what he's had to overcome physically, but because he has compassion, he has a brilliant mind, he's a brilliant orator and was imho, a real leading light in new Labour.

 

[clapham_gull]

When Labour gets in, I'd like for them to do what the Tories did by bringing in Baron David Frost from the Lords to serve in government.

And to bring back in Lord David Blunkett.

He may be mid 70's, but I have nothing but admiration for the man, not for what he's had to overcome physically, but because he has compassion, he has a brilliant mind, he's a brilliant orator and was imho, a real leading light in new Labour.

Have to disagree, bloody authoritarian in Government and Blair broke the records in terms of unelected members of cabinet.

I remember clearly the way the general public were treated in London under the guise of the "war on terror", it's a big no from me.

 

[peterward]

Not sure the Thatcher years were incompetent, however ideologically opposed you/I may be. That said the Falklands was a cock up, they could have avoided.

But yes in the last few years. Off the scale.

The pandemic exposed them. I was praying for a Government of national unity where anyone like John Major, Gordon Brown (and a variety of others) would come back and take control.

She was loathed by many and loved by many, but what you can say about Thatcher is she was a rare breed of politician who wasn't afraid to swim against the public tide for what "she" believed was right.

Both she and Tony Benn stand out as true conviction politcal leaders in a sea of grey focus group, wind blown suits who will flip flop when it gets tough.

We need more people with a vision and the courage of their convictions, not make it up as you go along of what's popular as we drift slowly backward in many areas.

The country as a whole has been in a form of managed decline for decades.

Why can't they make the NHS none political and just do what's needed cross party to fix it and fund it rather than points score and use it as a political football.

We need a radical transformation that fits the global system, not more of the same in a different suit.

 

[Beach Hut]

How can we forget that left jab .

Britains favourite bar steward as John Major commented

 

[Weststander]

She was loathed by many and loved by many, but what you can say about Thatcher is she was a rare breed of politician who wasn't afraid to swim against the public tide for what "she" believed was right.

Both she and Tony Benn stand out as true conviction politcal leaders in a sea of grey focus group, wind blown suits who will flip flop when it gets tough.

We need more people with a vision and the courage of their convictions, not make it up as you go along of what's popular as we drift slowly backward in many areas.

The country as a whole has been in a form of managed decline for decades.

Why can't they make the NHS none political and just do what's needed cross party to fix it and fund it rather than points score and use it as a political football.

We need a radical transformation that fits the global system, not more of the same in a different suit.

I’m not so sure about that, what timeframe are you thinking of?

London, Brighton and Hove was in many ways so run down in the 70’s. The debt of two WW’s, industrial strife and incompetence, councils allowing public amenities to close, fountains switched off, boarded up buildings in centres, home tourism partly abandoned for the Costa’s.

Pre Brexit vote, were we in a bad place? (Austerity was the chosen economic path across the G20 post financial crisis, so definitely not just a UK thing. Germany effectively imposed it on a reluctant Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece).

Reading online this evening academic articles about physicians in Europe, just as an example, pre Brexit they loved coming to work in the UK, amongst other things our world leading post graduate education and flat NHS hierarchical structure. A small aspect, but I thought christ we talk ourselves down. Natives, tend to moan about their country, friends from other countries have said it’s the same in their land.

We need to get on with tangibly fixing what’s broken. The lack of affordable housing, NHS waiting lists, the cost of social care in old age nettle.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You must clearly have amnesia, labour left a note in the treasury draw advising there is no more money when they last left office, having trashed the economy

Every Chancellor leaves a similar note. It’s a tradition!
Leaving the Treasury after Labour’s victory in the 1964 election, the outgoing Tory chancellor Reginald Maudling wrote a note for his replacement, Jim Callaghan, or possibly (accounts vary) spoke to him in person: “Good luck, old cock, sorry to leave it in such a mess.”

Gordon Brown, as an economist, was lauded for his actions after the banking crisis, and advice to other countries.

 

[Ooh it’s a corner]

I wouldn't say 6 or 7 years, the mess started with Boris who simply believed he was above the law of which no-one is.

You are correct that Johnson epitomises everything that has been wrong about the Govt but if anything it’s more than 6/7 years imo.

The weak leadership of Cameron in trying to get the right wing Tories off his back by letting the people decide on the EU was key.
Johnson then gambles on Leave, lies, wins and the debacle of the last 6/7 follows. The Tories then use Covid as a cash-cow and basically f**k everyone!

My point re Thatcher was unclear(my fault). It wasn’t that I thought she was incompetent. I was so ideologically opposed to practically everything she did that I couldn’t imagine a worse Government……but we’ve now been suffering one that unbelievably actually has been!

Anyway I suspect neither of us will be changing our views.

Back on thread I wouldn’t say I’m a Starmer fan at all but we need a change of government desperately.

 

[Machiavelli]

She was loathed by many and loved by many, but what you can say about Thatcher is she was a rare breed of politician who wasn't afraid to swim against the public tide for what "she" believed was right.

Both she and Tony Benn stand out as true conviction politcal leaders in a sea of grey focus group, wind blown suits who will flip flop when it gets tough.

We need more people with a vision and the courage of their convictions, not make it up as you go along of what's popular as we drift slowly backward in many areas.

The country as a whole has been in a form of managed decline for decades.

Why can't they make the NHS none political and just do what's needed cross party to fix it and fund it rather than points score and use it as a political football.

We need a radical transformation that fits the global system, not more of the same in a different suit.

Agreed, but conventional wisdom on here is that you only win from the centre (what this really means is that you can only have the centre or the right, but they won't tell you that).