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[Politics] Sir Keir Starmer’s route to Number 10



BenGarfield

Active member
Feb 22, 2019
348
crawley
Labour made some poor decisions in relation to the financial services sector and the wider economy, including, but not limited to, the following:

- encouraging and enabling 'light touch' regulation
- knighting Fred Goodwin
- selling 56% of the UK's gold reserves at the bottom of a two-decade bear market

The note proclaiming "there's no money left" was crass, and the individual who wrote it has subsequently expressed regret. For balance, I don't recall Truss or Kwarteng demonstrating a shred of humility after last year's debacle.
Indeed it was beyond crass. It was competely economically illiterate'' as government finances cannot be compared to a household budget because it is not a currency user but a currency issuer. Central government is more akin to the score keeper in a cricket match who can neither have or not have runs themselves.
 




Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,929
Fiveways
I'd agree entirely about Osbourne.

I guess he'd have preferred to inherit a better economy, but cuts to public services were always pencilled in, the economic background just made his PR sales job easier.

Inheritance tax is one of the things that grates me and I will always applaud the cutting or abolition of this one specific tax.

The left wing media brand it as "tax cut for millionaires" feeding their class warfare narrative, but really many normal families have paid a lifetime of taxes, and paid their mortgages from net incomes, theyve also paid banks millions in mortgage interest where said banks are also taxed on those profits.

The ability of a parent to pass their lifetime of work and net pay investment in paying for their homes to their kids etc, should be allowed to stay within a family and not be retaxed again imho.

Maybe tax second properties higher, but I'd support any politician letting parents leave more of their family home within their family.
Well that's where you and I will have to depart. And I say this as someone who may get an inheritance soon, unfortunately. But I also don't like private schools either. And I do like the principle of taxing assets more than labour.
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
20,813
Deepest, darkest Sussex
You must clearly have amnesia, labour left a note in the treasury draw advising there is no more money when they last left office, having trashed the economy
It’s a fairly well established thing that outgoing ministers leave amusing notes for their replacements. It’s not some sort of anonymous confession, it’s a gag which some charlatans used as a campaigning device.
 


Beach Hut

Brighton Bhuna Boy
Jul 5, 2003
72,390
Living In a Box
It’s a fairly well established thing that outgoing ministers leave amusing notes for their replacements. It’s not some sort of anonymous confession, it’s a gag which some charlatans used as a campaigning device.
I am fully aware of that if you followed what the actual discussion was about the poster was just stating how Tories trashed the economy, I was pointing out Labour did the same
 


Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
69,961
Withdean area
The Lehman brothers caused the financial crisis in 2008, and Gordon Brown along with Mervyn King, took Lloyds, TSB and TBS into public ownership.

Before the markets opened on Monday, it was announced that the Government was taking stakes in HBOS, Lloyds TSB and RBS in return for a £37 billion injection of capital while Barclays would be recapitalising from private sources. The state was now the majority shareholder of RBS and would own 40% of the new bank created by merging HBOS and Lloyds. Britain's banks opened their doors that morning. The cash machines still worked. As far as most people knew, it was business as usual.
One very senior civil servant, in many ways a sceptic about Gordon Brown's leadership skills, gives him much of the credit for bold action in this crisis: "Gordon was prepared to say: 'We need to bail them out' despite the political risks. He took the lead and then allowed Alistair to do it."



It’s far more complicated than that. This has been done to death on nsc in the past.

Brown and his equivalents elsewhere allowed casino banking in the 00’s with light touch regulation. Don’t believe me? There are a raft of Guardian articles covering this in detail. Financial institutions got what they wanted from Brown and his FSA. Some predicted the collapse across the globe, they were right.

After the vast damage was done, Brown resurrected the tried n trusted theory (not his baby) of QE. It prevented the collapse of the banks.

It should be noted that many left wing economists and commentators are scathing of QE. Their argument that the banks were in quick time solvent, allowing huge bonuses once more as lots of the country suffered for years to come. Not starting in May 2010! Brown and all other members of the G20 signed up to austerity. Where they resisted eg Greece, the Eurozone effectively Germany forced them to.
 




Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
It’s far more complicated than that. This has been done to death on nsc in the past.

Brown and his equivalents elsewhere allowed casino banking in the 00’s with light touch regulation. Don’t believe me? There are a raft of Guardian articles covering this in detail. Financial institutions got what they wanted from Brown and his FSA. Some predicted the collapse across the globe, they were right.

After the vast damage was done, Brown resurrected the tried n trusted theory (not his baby) of QE. It prevented the collapse of the banks.

It should be noted that many left wing economists and commentators are scathing of QE. Their argument that the banks were in quick time solvent, allowing huge bonuses once more as lots of the country suffered for years to come. Not starting in May 2010! Brown and all other members of the G20 signed up to austerity. Where they resisted eg Greece, the Eurozone effectively Germany forced them to.
Greece was bankrupt. It either massively devalue the drachma or join the euro. Stop blaming Germany.
 


peterward

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Nov 11, 2009
12,378
Greece was bankrupt. It either massively devalue the drachma or join the euro. Stop blaming Germany.
???

Greece, dropped the Drachma and joined the euro in 2001.

Germany insisted on Greek austerity measures to release EU bailout funds (primarily funded by Germany) over a decade after they were in the Euro.

Greeks financial problems caused in many parts by Greeks dodging taxes.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
???

Greece, dropped the Drachma and joined the euro in 2001.

Germany insisted on Greek austerity measures to release EU bailout funds (primarily funded by Germany) over a decade after they were in the Euro.

Greeks financial problems caused in many parts by Greeks dodging taxes.
I know. I have friends in Athens.
 




Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
69,961
Withdean area
Greece was bankrupt. It either massively devalue the drachma or join the euro. Stop blaming Germany.

Not blaming Germany at all, they had to reign in nations that thought they were immune. Although a respected hero of the left in the UK Yanis Varoufakis would say we’re talking baloney.

With your red party political blinkers on, you fail to acknowledge what happened in the 00’s. Brown and his equivalent in other countries, despite warnings, sided with all the lobbying of financial institutions. Bare minimal regulations and a lack of understanding of derivatives. A wild west.

After screwing up, the world paid a very heavy price for the next, you cherry pick the bit that he appeared on his charger to save the world. The only people who talk in those terms are very sensitive Labour voters, who refuse to accept that a monumental gaff was made during the second half of his chancellorship. The first half he preached prudence and carried on the work of Ken Clarke.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Not blaming Germany at all, they had to reign in nations that thought they were immune. Although a respected hero of the left in the UK Yanis Varoufakis would say we’re talking baloney.

With your red party political blinkers on, you fail to acknowledge what happened in the 00’s. Brown and his equivalent in other countries, despite warnings, sided with all the lobbying of financial institutions. Bare minimal regulations and a lack of understanding of derivatives. A wild west.

After screwing up, the world paid a very heavy price for the next, you cherry pick the bit that he appeared on his charger to save the world. The only people who talk in those terms are very sensitive Labour voters, who refuse to accept that a monumental gaff was made during the second half of his chancellorship. The first half he preached prudence and carried on the work of Ken Clarke.
Wrong on all counts.
 


Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
69,961
Withdean area
Last edited:




BenGarfield

Active member
Feb 22, 2019
348
crawley
It’s far more complicated than that. This has been done to death on nsc in the past.

Brown and his equivalents elsewhere allowed casino banking in the 00’s with light touch regulation. Don’t believe me? There are a raft of Guardian articles covering this in detail. Financial institutions got what they wanted from Brown and his FSA. Some predicted the collapse across the globe, they were right.

After the vast damage was done, Brown resurrected the tried n trusted theory (not his baby) of QE. It prevented the collapse of the banks.

It should be noted that many left wing economists and commentators are scathing of QE. Their argument that the banks were in quick time solvent, allowing huge bonuses once more as lots of the country suffered for years to come. Not starting in May 2010! Brown and all other members of the G20 signed up to austerity. Where they resisted eg Greece, the Eurozone effectively Germany forced them to.
QE didnt rescue the banks. It was a pretty pointless exercise in swapping interest bearing bonds for bank reserves.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
You’re clearly out of your depth on economics, city regulation and the 00’s. You tried deflection, lazily and wrongly assuming I was against Germany’s actions. Perhaps some Guardian pieces will educate you.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/mar/24/farewell-fsa-bleak-legacy-light-touch-regulator

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/dec/12/labour-regulations-city-rbs-collapse
Yes, I’m being lazy because I’m more interested in tonight’s game. I’ll say more tomorrow. You have also assumed a lot.
 


AK74

Bright-eyed. Bushy-tailed. GSOH.
NSC Patron
Jan 19, 2010
1,444
You’re clearly out of your depth on economics, city regulation and the 00’s. You tried deflection, lazily and wrongly assuming I was against Germany’s actions. Perhaps some Guardian pieces will educate you.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/mar/24/farewell-fsa-bleak-legacy-light-touch-regulator

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/dec/12/labour-regulations-city-rbs-collapse
I might be in a minority of one, but it was particularly galling to see Hector Sants rock up at Barclays.
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,733
Faversham
Not really, Harry, it is the chippiness of some on here that grates. Although I was educated at a private school, I really don’t have a strong feeling about them. I always said that one of the best days of my life was the day I left school and I still maintain that view.
I don’t particularly dislike Labour, but I cannot ally myself to them, unlike some of the Labour supporters on here who really hate the Tories. As I said in my post, I do hope Labour make a success of their time in office for the good of the country, and that the Tories get a grip of themselves in Opposition and come back to their collective senses. I am always in favour of a strong Opposition regardless of which party is in power.
P.S.My sister, also privately educated, is a bit of a Lefty over many things and I am sure she wouldn’t give a monkeys if private schools disappeared. She spent her whole career teaching in the state sector and lives in Brighton. She’d probably fit in quite well on NSC.😁😉
Very fair :thumbsup:
It’s a fairly well established thing that outgoing ministers leave amusing notes for their replacements. It’s not some sort of anonymous confession, it’s a gag which some charlatans used as a campaigning device.
@Beach Hut doesn't believe Starmer/Labour, but he does believe every word written on a post-it note by a spotty intern 14 years ago.

Heartwarming.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,733
Faversham
Not blaming Germany at all, they had to reign in nations that thought they were immune. Although a respected hero of the left in the UK Yanis Varoufakis would say we’re talking baloney.

With your red party political blinkers on, you fail to acknowledge what happened in the 00’s. Brown and his equivalent in other countries, despite warnings, sided with all the lobbying of financial institutions. Bare minimal regulations and a lack of understanding of derivatives. A wild west.

After screwing up, the world paid a very heavy price for the next, you cherry pick the bit that he appeared on his charger to save the world. The only people who talk in those terms are very sensitive Labour voters, who refuse to accept that a monumental gaff was made during the second half of his chancellorship. The first half he preached prudence and carried on the work of Ken Clarke.
1. Never hear of him. I can't be very left, then... so much for all that Marxism training I've supposedly had (according to the late Fairy, formerly of this parish).
2. After-timing. You can always find someone with a niche opinion, @BenGarfield, for example and...
3. and yes, the world. Perhaps Broon should have stuck with his 'prudent' instincts. But he would have received no apology from the Mail, Sun and Express had the UK uniquely avoided the crash. I think he may have been guilty of chasing rainbows at the end of his chancellorship in the hope some of the shine might decorate his leadership cachet, but overall, weird though he is, I'd not single him out as whipping boy.
4. <sigh> Aftertiming again. I don't know any sensitive labour voters (in the way you mean it). Just cross ones.

And you were a bit needlessly rude to @Thunder Bolt. I expect she raise one eyebrow. A tiny bit.

:wink:

(Footy was good wasn't it!) :thumbsup:
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,733
Faversham


clapham_gull

Legacy Fan
Aug 20, 2003
25,970
Analysis shows that Labour and The Conservatives have very similar records on the economy.

( and I'm talking about their normal form, not the Conservatives post Theresa May or a virtual Corbyn one that never existed )
 


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