[Politics] Sir Keir Starmer’s route to Number 10

[dazzer6666]

Yup. Wealth entrenches wealth (Piketty has a very simple formula here which is, under capitalism and without proper regulation/taxation regimes, r > g, ie the rate of return on capital is greater than growth, which is another way of saying that labour suffers while assets accumulate. Broadly, between 1920s and 1980 in many western countries, g > r. Not only were growth rates high, but socioeconomic mobility was high too (it isn't when r > g). People will find their way around systems to avoid tax. That's fine. HMRC, etc need to be on top of things. The first way around this is to boost their numbers and give them teeth.
The money accrued should be spent on energy transition, NHS, social care and education for me. As much as I'm against private education, I take your point about the profile and reasons of those that are using it. My response is that the state should substantially improve provision for SEN, which has been slashed since austerity was introduced (and was going to need more money anyway with increased diagnoses).

Agree with the theory…..but HMRC aren’t even on top of answering their bloody phones…….they are absolute light years behind smart tax accountants and wealth managers…….closing the gap even slightly will take years and many millions, so any ’money accrued’ (if there is any) is years and years away. Something more radical and impactful has to be done….biggest scandal and maybe first target are the corporations operating in the UK and paying sod all tax imo. Catch a few big fish, not try to net a million small ones.

Also, chucking more cash at the NHS won’t help it much, it’ll get swallowed up by unnecessary management layers, consultations and suchlike. Personally think the NHS is too big for a one party/one term ‘fix’ - should be a cross-party, unconflicted task force (ie carries on regardless of GEs etc) put in place to review and reform it top to bottom……

 

[Machiavelli]

How do you practically implement a wealth tax on assets ? How often (and how) do you value property, particularly if it’s abroad ? Other assets like artworks etc (if you don’t include these, that‘s where money will go) ? Liquid assets are arguably easier to capture - interest payments and suchlike are already reported to HMRC by banks and have been for donkey’s years.

In two words, a register (see Norway, for instance).
I did point out to the obstacles around implementation in the post you responded to (we're saying similar things on a few things in both posts).

 

[Machiavelli]

Agree with the theory…..but HMRC aren’t even on top of answering their bloody phones…….they are absolute light years behind smart tax accountants and wealth managers…….closing the gap even slightly will take years and many millions, so any ’money accrued’ (if there is any) is years and years away. Something more radical and impactful has to be done….biggest scandal and maybe first target are the corporations operating in the UK and paying sod all tax imo. Catch a few big fish, not try to net a million small ones.

Also, chucking more cash at the NHS won’t help it much, it’ll get swallowed up by unnecessary management layers, consultations and suchlike. Personally think the NHS is too big for a one party/one term ‘fix’ - should be a cross-party, unconflicted task force (ie carries on regardless of GEs etc) put in place to review and reform it top to bottom……

Yes, more agreement

 

[dazzer6666]

In two words, a register (see Norway, for instance).
I did point out to the obstacles around implementation in the post you responded to (we're saying similar things on a few things in both posts).

Don’t think we misaligned…….problem we have relative to Norway is a much more complicated tax system now……so even getting to a register would take years.

We need some ‘quick wins’ (hate using w@nky project management speak), so nail the big corporations now, and get the NHS review underway. Won’t happen of course, because agreement between the parties would be needed

 

[Weststander]

Sorry to appear so negative on this but surely no matter what format of taxation/redistribution, call it what you will will not ever end up having the impact on the super wealthy that people may crave.

With such wealth comes the ability to engage the services of the very best taxation advisors, solicitors, accountants et al. Taking you back to where you started whereby they will know the ways around the rules, be aware of all the loopholes etc etc and end up paying little more than they do now.

For starters on homes, especially second homes. It’s come to the stage where the wealthy, which includes folk not drawing much income so not high IT payers, need to contribute more. For the very practical reasons of falling apart roads, NHS waiting lists, those suffering with mental ill health and not helped, social housing.

Homes in France and Spain - UK resident taxpayers should be compelled to declare them here, as part of a wealth assessment. If people decide to lie or put it someone else’s name, for us to liaise with overseas tax authorities. Even in the 90’s I saw a UK taxpayer caught out where he kept secret a French property and how he’d funded it …. French and Italian authorities worked with HMRC …. the web of lies meant Italy was part of the story.

I’m not so sure about taking a %age of invested funds. Because we’re on a long bear market, people have lost a lot of money, it would seem unfair to tax a falling pot.

 

[beorhthelm]

How do you practically implement a wealth tax on assets ? How often (and how) do you value property, particularly if it’s abroad ? Other assets like artworks etc (if you don’t include these, that‘s where money will go) ? Liquid assets are arguably easier to capture - interest payments and suchlike are already reported to HMRC by banks and have been for donkey’s years.

the practical way to tax assets is when you sell them, when the seller has liquid cash to pay the tax. otherwise you force selling, diminishing value, or concentrat assets with those that have ready cashflow to pay the wealth tax. then you have problems to create workarounds for, like companies (may have to dissolve to pay assets taxes) or investment and pensions funds (by far the largest holders of wealth). as soon as you make those workarounds, all the assets and wealth would be sheltered in compliant structures. just as they have with IHT. so only the middle classes with unexpected wealth get caught up in the tax.

 

[dazzer6666]

the practical way to tax assets is when you sell them, when the seller has liquid cash to pay the tax. otherwise you force selling, diminishing value, or concentrat assets with those that have ready cashflow to pay the wealth tax. then you have problems to create workarounds for, like companies (may have to dissolve to pay assets taxes) or investment and pensions funds (by far the largest holder of wealth). as soon as you make those workarounds, all the assets and wealth would be sheltered in compliant structures. just as they have with IHT. so only the middle classes with unexpected wealth get caught up in the tax.

Agree with that 100%

 

[Is it PotG?]

Big speech from the dynamic PM-in-waiting coming up.

Will he get off the fence and placate those to the left on the party?

 

[Simster]

Big speech from the dynamic PM-in-waiting coming up.

Will he get off the fence and placate those to the left on the party?

I don't really understand how you think your pitiful sneering comes across.

You're a died in the wool Tory who can't see that even if he was the dullest, least dynamic Labour politician available, he'd still be a massive upgrade on an incompetent, lying, corrupt cabal that has spent 13 years absolutely ruining large parts of the country. From food bank usage to public service degradation. from shit flowing into the sea to a damaging referendum that has divided the country and rocked Northern Irish politics.

When Labour left, they had a string of successes they could point to. They were voted out because the national debt had grown. Well since then, the Tories have trebled it and improved absolutely nothing. Instead they've devastated the country.

Most moderate Tories are hanging their heads forlornly (there are plenty on here) at the takeover by UKIP headbangers. Then there's people like you who refuse to acknowledge the damage caused. It's weird and incredibly stupid.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I don't really understand how you think your pitiful sneering comes across.

You're a died in the wool Tory who can't see that even if he was the dullest, least dynamic Labour politician available, he'd still be a massive upgrade on an incompetent, lying, corrupt cabal that has spent 13 years absolutely ruining large parts of the country. From food bank usage to public service degradation. from shit flowing into the sea to a damaging referendum that has divided the country and rocked Northern Irish politics.

When Labour left, they had a string of successes they could point to. They were voted out because the national debt had grown. Well since then, the Tories have trebled it and improved absolutely nothing. Instead they've devastated the country.

Most moderate Tories are hanging their heads forlornly (there are plenty on here) at the takeover by UKIP headbangers. Then there's people like you who refuse to acknowledge the damage caused. It's weird and incredibly stupid.

Don't disagree with anything you say, but on the bright side, his increasingly desperate witterings are absolutely hilarious

 

[Is it PotG?]

I don't really understand how you think your pitiful sneering comes across.

You're a died in the wool Tory who can't see.......

Good start, total nonsense.....

 

[Simster]

Good start, total nonsense.....

It's not though is it? You've always been a Brexit/Tory apologist and are forever sneering at Starmer - an intelligent state-educated man, made good.

I'm afraid just stating "total nonsense" doesn't actually make it total nonsense.

 

[Is it PotG?]

It's not though is it? You've always been a Brexit/Tory apologist and are forever sneering at Starmer - an intelligent state-educated man, made good.

I'm afraid just stating "total nonsense" doesn't actually make it total nonsense.

Simply because it's assumption, without basis.

As an ex-Labour voter, there is no way that Mr Wishy-Washy is the way forward. He tried to keep everyone happy and avoided answering how he would act should he be PM. There was so much non-commitment all over that speech, the usual rhetoric.

 

[Simster]

Simply because it's assumption, without basis.

As an ex-Labour voter, there is no way that Mr Wishy-Washy is the way forward. He tried to keep everyone happy and avoided answering how he would act should he be PM. There was so much non-commitment all over that speech, the usual rhetoric.

Yes I'm sure "non-commitment" has always been a major issue for you. That's why you definitely voted for Jeremy Corbyn with his fully costed manifesto and absolutely didn't vote Tory in 2019 with their flimsy fag-packet equivalent where 45% of the very few commitments they did bother to make are now being reneged on. (https://www.instituteforgovernment....019-conservative-manifesto-half-time-analysis)

 

[rippleman]

Simply because it's assumption, without basis.

As an ex-Labour voter, there is no way that Mr Wishy-Washy is the way forward. He tried to keep everyone happy and avoided answering how he would act should he be PM. There was so much non-commitment all over that speech, the usual rhetoric.

I am at the polar opposite of the political spectrum to you; a lifelong Labour supporter, voter and former member. But I agree.

Anybody who can look at the killings in the Middle East and declare that calling for a ceasefire "is not the correct position" is not fit for any role in public life, let alone the leader of a political party and "PM in waiting".

When IS calling for a ceasefire the "correct position"? When 10K have been killed? 50K dead? 100k?

His naivity in believing that unrestrained and unrestricted Israeli attacks will destroy Hamas is unreal. It will not. It will just be a recruitment campaign for the terrorists just as the Bloody Sunday murders saw the greatest increase in IRA membership. Even Sleepy Joe has warned that the actions the US took after 9/11 didn't exactly end well. Did invading Afghanistan with horrific loss of life end the Taliban? No. They are worse than ever.

Anybody who can look at the rising death toll in Gaza and effectively say "you carry on killing guys, it's fine by me" is a shameful disgrace.

A ceasefire is needed and it is needed NOW.

 

[Hamilton]

Agree.

Kier hoping he can hide behind backing the government’s position is going to backfire.

But the first job in opposition is simple. Get elected.

He needs to know that he can call for a ceasefire. What Hamas did was disgraceful. Israel does have a right to exist. The Israeli government does not have the right to kill thousands indiscriminately.

But, we have to get rid of the Tories. We can’t afford to have more years of them. We have to back an alternative leader and not be divided.

 

[Is it PotG?]

 

[Thunder Bolt]

It appears Starmer and Labour are on board with the Charter Cities/Freeports as much as the Tories. That's why he insists he can make Brexit work.

I give up. I don't want any of this for this country.

 

[Chicken Run]

Oh well it’s only Burnley….

A council leader and 10 councillors have quit the Labour Party over Sir Keir Starmer's decision not to push for a ceasefire in Gaza.

Labour: Burnley councillors quit party over Israel-Gaza ceasefire stance https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67329589

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Oh well it’s only Burnley….

A council leader and 10 councillors have quit the Labour Party over Sir Keir Starmer's decision not to push for a ceasefire in Gaza.

Labour: Burnley councillors quit party over Israel-Gaza ceasefire stance https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67329589

Probably just an excuse to get out of Burnley.