[Politics] Scotland / England Border

[Triggaaar]

I used to think that the UK was better together including Scotland and I did not want them to leave when they had their referendum. Now, after the last 3-4 years I am starting to respect their view for wanting independence

Except that their view is they don't want independence.

 

[Triggaaar]

It is another country

No it isn't.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

God I wouldn't mind being in the euro right now, pound is all over the place, its a nightmare

I would argue that were we in the Euro we may not have Brexit, as there would be on exchange rate to speculate against to profit from the turmoil.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Let’s have a referendum to leave them ..that’ll fool them..as regards to a wall try checkatrade

 

[Simster]

is 55.3% to 44.7% an "overwhelming vote"?! that wouldn't take a big swing whatsoever to go the other way, and given attitudes towards Scotland from Westminster in the past few years, it wouldn't be a tough task to change a few peoples minds. If you want to make an argument that Scotland is being downtrodden by the English elite, and the current prime minister is BORIS JOHNSON with people like Jacob Rees-Mogg in his cabinet, it's a bit of an open goal really.

As we've seen with Brexit, a lot of people don't care about the economy when making their vote- it's boring. Thing's like perceived oppression, sovereignty etc are much more exciting and easy to motivate people to voting for

[MENTION=451]BensGrandad[/MENTION] is trotting out the usual Brexiteer bullshit to make himself feel better that his own illogical support for an old-Etonian "born to rule" pathalogical liar is somehow not responsible for disenfranchising other areas of the UK.

The argument that "Scotland can't afford to be independent" is the biggest crock of shit you'll hear. It isn't like the Irish are on their knees is it? You can bet they were told the same thing 100 years ago, and they never had massive oil reserves off their coast.

Except that their view is they don't want independence.

You don't know that any more than he does. The last referendum was before the Brexit referendum. Since then the SNP have absolutely bossed GEs up there.

 

[Hillian1]

No it isn't.

Don't argue Trig, you'll be put on ignore, like me.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Even if Brexit somehow gets fudged over the line, get prepared for years and years of fallout.

Leave the European Union to destroy our own, maybe that should have been on the bus instead

So if the UK is going to be destroyed, assume you won't want to hang around to be part of it. It would be horrible to have to suffer years and years of fallout, bitterness and recrimination. Life would be unbearable. No point in putting yourself through all that misery. Find somewhere much nicer ( where there are less thick'os, racists and xenophobes ) and reap the benefits of being in the EU.

 

[blue-shifted]

[MENTION=451]BensGrandad[/MENTION] is trotting out the usual Brexiteer bullshit to make himself feel better that his own illogical support for an old-Etonian "born to rule" pathalogical liar is somehow not responsible for disenfranchising other areas of the UK.

The argument that "Scotland can't afford to be independent" is the biggest crock of shit you'll hear. It isn't like the Irish are on their knees is it? You can bet they were told the same thing 100 years ago, and they never had massive oil reserves off their coast.



You don't know that any more than he does. The last referendum was before the Brexit referendum. Since then the SNP have absolutely bossed GEs up there.

Well, I think it's fair to make the point they'll be a period of adjustment whilst they get used to not having the free tuition fees, hospital parking etc etc etc, that they've got used to having funded for them

 

[blue-shifted]

Except that their view is they don't want independence.

So if there were another independence referendum next year would you be happy to place money on the same outcome being reached?

 

[Simster]

Well, I think it's fair to make the point they'll be a period of adjustment whilst they get used to not having the free tuition fees, hospital parking etc etc etc, that they've got used to having funded for them

True, but that's not the same thing as not being able to afford independence.

And as for free tuition fees, we used to have that. But not enough people question what alternative benefit has been provided by the Tories since they removed them, so the Scots have probably got that right and I doubt they'd actually change that anyway.

 

[Hastings gull]

With the inevitable break up of the Union post Brexit and Scotland rejoining the EU as an independent country, that's gonna be a thorny one isn't it ? (*)

(*) Borders can always be made out something else than thorns.

Surely with so much up in the air at the moment, it is far too early to say that something like this is inevitable. What evidence do you have for such a definitive statement?

 

[Triggaaar]

Don't argue Trig, you'll be put on ignore, like me.

I've tried and failed to get on his ignore list. He won't do it, just to spite me.

 

[Triggaaar]

So if there were another independence referendum next year would you be happy to place money on the same outcome being reached?

Their view may change next year, but if they would like independence in a year's time, what's to say they won't then change their minds again? The point is that vegster was saying he was starting to respect their view for wanting independence, but the fact is the only time their view was checked (which wasn't long ago), they didn't want independence. The Scottish public have voted for their MPs to be mostly from the SNP and with the SNP continually whining about independence it's easy to forget that the people voted against it.

 

[Triggaaar]

You don't know that any more than he does. The last referendum was before the Brexit referendum. Since then the SNP have absolutely bossed GEs up there.

There has only been one referendum, it wasn't that long ago, and they voted to remain. Of course that's no guarantee they still feel the same way, but at least it's something, which is more that any evidence that they want independence.

 

[blue-shifted]

There has only been one referendum, it wasn't that long ago, and they voted to remain. Of course that's no guarantee they still feel the same way, but at least it's something, which is more that any evidence that they want independence.

There's no evidence, but it's highly likely to turn out to be the case.

Things have changed fundamentally since the first referendum meaning the Scots should be entitled to a referendum, and Sturgeon etc will surely win it given the contempt they feel they've been held in for the last 3 years. Assuming Boris was PM, would be even bother campaigning?

 

[nicko31]

So if the UK is going to be destroyed, assume you won't want to hang around to be part of it. It would be horrible to have to suffer years and years of fallout, bitterness and recrimination. Life would be unbearable. No point in putting yourself through all that misery. Find somewhere much nicer ( where there are less thick'os, racists and xenophobes ) and reap the benefits of being in the EU.

Now the sunny uplands have turned into mountain mizzle, it seems that's all you have left. Just remember you own it....

 

[Simster]

There has only been one referendum, it wasn't that long ago, and they voted to remain. Of course that's no guarantee they still feel the same way, but at least it's something, which is more that any evidence that they want independence.

It was 55 v 45 back then. Since then; a) the UK has voted for Brexit where Scotland voted massively against it, and b) the SNP have returned 60% of Scottish seats in the general election that happened since the last independence vote.

It could very easily be argued that Scotland has now turned pro-independence since the last vote, which was close. And remember, all I'm doing is pulling you up for saying "they don't want independence". You simply cannot be confident in saying that.

 

[Triggaaar]

It was 55 v 45 back then. Since then; a) the UK has voted for Brexit where Scotland voted massively against it, and b) the SNP have returned 60% of Scottish seats in the general election that happened since the last independence vote.

That 60% of seats was actually less than half the voters. So most people voted for other parties. In a referendum every vote counts, it's not FPTP.

And remember, all I'm doing is pulling you up for saying "they don't want independence". You simply cannot be confident in saying that.

All I was doing was pulling someone up for saying "Now, after the last 3-4 years I am starting to respect their view for wanting independence". They simply cannot be confident in saying that. Bias aside, I'd assume you'd agree with me.

 

[The Spanish]

is 55.3% to 44.7% an "overwhelming vote"?! that wouldn't take a big swing whatsoever to go the other way, and given attitudes towards Scotland from Westminster in the past few years, it wouldn't be a tough task to change a few peoples minds. If you want to make an argument that Scotland is being downtrodden by the English elite, and the current prime minister is BORIS JOHNSON with people like Jacob Rees-Mogg in his cabinet, it's a bit of an open goal really.

As we've seen with Brexit, a lot of people don't care about the economy when making their vote- it's boring. Thing's like perceived oppression, sovereignty etc are much more exciting and easy to motivate people to voting for

Or as we’ve seen with Indyref, entirely the opposite. The nationalist sword blunted by economic pragmatism.

 

[Simster]

That 60% of seats was actually less than half the voters. So most people voted for other parties. In a referendum every vote counts, it's not FPTP.

All I was doing was pulling someone up for saying "Now, after the last 3-4 years I am starting to respect their view for wanting independence". They simply cannot be confident in saying that. Bias aside, I'd assume you'd agree with me.

Absolutely I agree with you for pulling up [MENTION=11928]vegster[/MENTION] for saying the Scots want independence. But where you're wrong is to argue that by stating they don't.

We simply don't know whether the Scots want independence or not.