[Politics] Scotland / England Border

[Simster]

What was Harry's definition? He posted something that said they were countries, but that was nothing about a definition of what a country is.

And you said "no it isn't", with (imo) misplaced authority. The thing is, there are plenty of definitions of the word "country" that would see Scotland defined as such.

This is why Scotland competes in most sports as Scotland rather than as part of GB or the UK.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Just under Stoke please.

 

[Weststander]

The problem is the Scots were told in 2014 they would be safer staying in UK as we were part of the EU. Brexit just 2 years later was the ultimate betrayal of trust, worse still the Scots voted by almost 1 to 2 against it.

Whilst I'd hate the break up of the UK, its hard to disagree with their desire to leave now if the Tories secure their little Englander Brexit,

Sturgeon and Salmond, with ever growing support (they were close to gaining independence, until Brown and others woke up and campaigned for the Union), were/are hellbent on independence.

Instead of treating their loss as a Neverendum (Canada), almost the next day they were making it plain that it wasn’t a Neverendum and they would not wait long at all for the next. To be out of the UK as soon as possible.

All clearly before anyone realistically thought the UK would vote for Brexit.

Unlike the French Canadians; The SNP are relentless, forever moaning and propagandising about a raw deal (The Barnett Formula gives the exact opposite). Brown, Dewar, Smith and Darling called it a contrived devisiveness - deliberately turning Scots against the rest of the UK, whilst revelling when the rest of the Union criticised the moaning Scots. Deliberate and highly effective.

Brexit has simply given Sturgeon the immediate excuse to hasten this.

If the Brexit vote had been a large majority to Remain, Sturgeon and Robertson would still have been tenaciously grabbing the news to leave the UK.

We haven’t left the EU. It would not surprise me one but if the Remain Commons forever blocks it. If that’s the case, it would be interesting to see the what the SNP have to say about the UK, when Scotland’s in the EU exactly the same as it always has been. What else could they possibly complain about? Probably a lot.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What was Harry's definition? He posted something that said they were countries, but that was nothing about a definition of what a country is.

Exactly. Which is why [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION] is wondering why you are banging on about it. It had feck all to do with the point of my post (which was nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of a nation state or whatever you want to call it). England as opposed to sodding Scotland. Which is why I am a bit non-plussed. There is no need to pick holes in absolutely everything. Part of my job is to teach and if I picked up someone who, for sake of argument, was writing about making soup, and mentioned adding a variety of ingredients, including vegetables, with celery, onion and tomatoes included in his elegant list, in a perfectly reasonable recipe, and all I could say was 'tomatoes are fruit' I'd look look a bit of a bumptious prick, to be honest. Perspective and all that.

 

[Triggaaar]

And you said "no it isn't", with (imo) misplaced authority.

You complained that I decided Harry's definition was wrong. I don't think he stated a definition, so I asked you what his definition was, and you've avoided the question.

The thing is, there are plenty of definitions of the word "country" that would see Scotland defined as such.

I don't think there are. Could you highlight some?

This is why Scotland competes in most sports as Scotland rather than as part of GB or the UK.

What a country means isn't about sport. Scotland vs England is (I think) the oldest fixture between difference nations. It would be a shame to end it, just because we're not countries. Gibraltar isn't a country either, but they too compete in football. And Scottish nationals compete for the UK in sports like the Olympics.

 

[Triggaaar]

... Which is why I am a bit non-plussed. There is no need to pick holes in absolutely everything. Part of my job is to teach and if I picked up someone who, for sake of argument, was writing about making soup, and mentioned adding a variety of ingredients, including vegetables, with celery, onion and tomatoes included in his elegant list, in a perfectly reasonable recipe, and all I could say was 'tomatoes are fruit' I'd look look a bit of a bumptious prick, to be honest. Perspective and all that.

So you think we should all post on NSC as if we're teaching a class? You'd also look like a bit of a prick if you said to your class 'Can someone tell me what he just said? I didn't hear him, because I've got him on ignore.' What a ridiculous comparison.

I pointed out that Scotland isn't a country because I felt like it. It wasn't an attack on you. This is NSC, there are jokes, jibes, piss-takes, etc. It's not a teacher/student relationship.

 

[pastafarian]

This is up to the jocks to decide. If they decide to leave our union via a referendum i hope everyone accepts the decision and the remainers to the union dont say screw that referendum result ....we dont agree with it....Scotland should not leave.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Well I appreciate there are people that won't accept this, but a country is a specific thing. Generally, a country has specific things - off the top of my head:

Sovereignty - control of it's own borders. The nations within the UK have no power to refuse entry to people from the other nations within the UK. The UK has the power to refuse entry to people in the EU, by changing our laws (leaving the EU). But the whole Scottish government could not vote to prevent you or me waltzing into Scotland any time we like.
Currency - the nations in the UK cannot control their own individual currency without the say of the rest of the nations (countries within the EU have joined the Euro, but they do have the power to leave it should they wish).
Government - the nations in the UK don't have their own governments with full authority - England doesn't have it's own government at all, so Scotland is closer to being a country than England is.
Army - a country would usually have its own army.
Recognition - part of being a country is being recognised as such by other countries. Our home nations don't have their own seat at the UN. The UK does, because the UK is a country. Sadly, football teams don't count as the definition of a country.

The very fact that Scotland needs to ask the UK for permission to vote on independence is an indication that they're not a country. No country in the world needs permission from someone else on matters like that. If Scotland were given the vote again, and they voted for independence, and went through with it (following our Brexit like trade talks), they would then be a country. England still wouldn't.

Sovereignty is about the power to govern and not about controlling borders. Scotland has its own government and legal system.

The City of London controls its own borders. Drive your car across the border and they will levy a tax against you, enforceable under English law.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[mikeyjh]

We do know that the EU already has borders with other countries? The NI situation is somewhat unique.

We do. But it's also quite unique to be creating a hard border where today there isn't one - I admire Sturgeon's honesty in admitting that a hard border is a 'possibility' although it's actually an inevitability in the scenario of us England being entirely out of the EU and Scotland in. Putting up the walls on your only land border has to be extremely impactful and people living in Scotland should be aware of the economic impact......

 

[beorhthelm]

Exactly. Which is why [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION] is wondering why you are banging on about it. It had feck all to do with the point of my post (which was nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of a nation state or whatever you want to call it). England as opposed to sodding Scotland. Which is why I am a bit non-plussed. There is no need to pick holes in absolutely everything. Part of my job is to teach and if I picked up someone who, for sake of argument, was writing about making soup, and mentioned adding a variety of ingredients, including vegetables, with celery, onion and tomatoes included in his elegant list, in a perfectly reasonable recipe, and all I could say was 'tomatoes are fruit' I'd look look a bit of a bumptious prick, to be honest. Perspective and all that.

tomatoes are both a fruit and a vegetable, the former being a botanical term and the latter being a culinary term. hope this helps.

Scotland is a country too, geographical meaning.

 

[Jambo Seagull]

If Scotland isn’t a country then what is England? No one is seriously suggesting that England is just a region, are they?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So you think we should all post on NSC as if we're teaching a class? You'd also look like a bit of a prick if you said to your class 'Can someone tell me what he just said? I didn't hear him, because I've got him on ignore.' What a ridiculous comparison.

I pointed out that Scotland isn't a country because I felt like it. It wasn't an attack on you. This is NSC, there are jokes, jibes, piss-takes, etc. It's not a teacher/student relationship.

So you give me yet another lecture then say it isn't a teacher/student relationship?

You may think it's a funny joke to keep correcting me by saying Scotland isn't a country but it feels entirely like you are picking on me like a pedantic bully.

You can be exceptionally tedious but I don't feel the need to point it out every time. This time I did. Get over yourself.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Whether Scotland is a country or a nation or a region simply depends on your definition of those words. I'm fairly sure there is no authoritative definition of any of them. I too would be curious to know why Triggaaar has decided your definition is unquestionably wrong because I am fairly confident that it isn't.

Apparently it is his right and I should just suck it up

 

[Hugo Rune]

I hope everyone accepts the decision and the remainers to the union dont say screw that referendum result ....we dont agree with it....Scotland should not leave.

Of course they will. It’s absurd to think that they won’t. To hope they’ll shut up and accept it is similar to hoping the Prime Minister will stop lying - it ain’t gonna happen!

It’s actually up to the pro-independence Scots to make an intelligent and justified case to convince the remainers which I think is possible as most Scots voted remain in the UK on economic grounds in the last independence referendum; those voters know they’ll be better off in EU so will switch allegiances next time.

It’s also up the Scottish government (SNP) to ensure that they deliver their promise as opposition parties will always oppose. Currently, they have no majority (62 vs 66) which could put their plans at risk. Governments without majorities have to work with other parties to get stuff through, something Theresa May failed at miserably having surrendered her majority in the election.

 

[Simster]

Apparently it is his right and I should just suck it up

He picks up everything for the sake of being pedantic. Fine, except sometimes he's just plain wrong. When he is wrong, he never admits it, he just argues and argues and argues and argues until he decides you're silly or "it's just NSC" or some such drivel. A tedious bell-end.

Oh and [MENTION=4019]Triggaaar[/MENTION], you really want me to produce a definition of country that would see Scotland defined as one? Fine, although I'm only going to do what you could have done yourself:

Put "what is a country" into google, and the principal definition on the right hand side is this:

"A country is a region that is identified as a distinct entity in political geography. A country may be an independent sovereign state or part of a larger state, as a non-sovereign or formerly sovereign ..."


Can you stop being a complete cock now please and just admit you're *gasp* WRONG?

 

[Simster]

Exactly. Which is why [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION] is wondering why you are banging on about it. It had feck all to do with the point of my post (which was nothing whatsoever to do with the nature of a nation state or whatever you want to call it). England as opposed to sodding Scotland. Which is why I am a bit non-plussed. There is no need to pick holes in absolutely everything. Part of my job is to teach and if I picked up someone who, for sake of argument, was writing about making soup, and mentioned adding a variety of ingredients, including vegetables, with celery, onion and tomatoes included in his elegant list, in a perfectly reasonable recipe, and all I could say was 'tomatoes are fruit' I'd look look a bit of a bumptious prick, to be honest. Perspective and all that.

Your soup analogy is absolutely spot on. Well almost.

For your analogy to work perfectly, Triggaaar would be arguing that a tomato was actually a form of nut. You'd then not only have to contend with him being a bumptious prick, but factually wrong. You'd then be expected to be the one to prove that he was wrong, and after doing so he'd finally resort to calling you "silly" for going to all that trouble and that "this is only NSC so it doesn't matter".

 

[Triggaaar]

So you give me yet another lecture then say it isn't a teacher/student relationship?

You may think it's a funny joke to keep correcting me by saying Scotland isn't a country but it feels entirely like you are picking on me like a pedantic bully.

Seriously? Christ. I said it once and from then on we were discussing it - you were saying it is, I was saying it isn't. Do you actually feel bullied by me? I'm a bit shocked if that is the case, and if it really is I'm sorry, I never meant for you to feel that way.

You can be exceptionally tedious but I don't feel the need to point it out every time. This time I did.

I don't know what that means in this context.

 

[Triggaaar]

Sovereignty is about the power to govern and not about controlling borders.

"Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies."
If you had the full right and power, you could control your borders as well as other things.

Scotland has its own government and legal system.

The Scottish government doesn't have full rights and power, they only have what the UK government give them, and what the UK government could also take away. But as I've said, that's more than England have, we don't have our own government at all.

 

[Triggaaar]

A tedious bell-end.
...
Can you stop being a complete cock now
...
contend with him being a bumptious prick

And I'm the bully, right?

I don't think there's much point replying to your points, you're just rude and offensive.

 

[Simster]

And I'm the bully, right?

Yes you bullied Harry. Picking me up for bullying you is just mindless whataboutery.

I don't think there's much point replying to your points, you're just rude and offensive.

Indeed. You comments are rarely worth reading so that works for me - they often amount to tedious nitpicking, and you're often wrong and when you are you'll say anything to wriggle out of admitting it. Look at how you've moved the conversation onto making out you're the victim of bullying and rudeness. But obviously it's all a bit beneath you to admit that you asked for any of it.

Are you stil insisting Scotland isn't a country, with breathtakingly arrogant misplaced authority, by the way?