[Football] Safe standing trial for top two divisions approved

[Sid in the Sharknado]

Well it isn't bollocks. On the previous thread about this someone was claiming it would prevent all the injuries yet had no evidence, despite us being at the Amex for 10 years, of these injuries.

It is nonsense to claim that a higher railing presents a similar danger to one at roughly knee level, otherwise design standards wouldn't require handrails to be about 1m off the ground

In any case, I strongly suspect that the safety argument comes down to liability. To justify lifting standing restrictions, the various bods responsible have to put something else in place so that the "risk" that is seen as being introduced can be said to be managed. I read a report on this the other day that suggested that the chance of injury was rather higher in areas with intermittent standing (i.e. jumping up and down to celebrate a goal), than in areas where people stand all the time, which would seem to be an argument for putting the rails in throughout the ground

From a cold cost point of view, the last time I checked the typical "value per fatality" was around £1.8m, so to justify installation you'd have to guess that there's one seriously life changing injury being prevented for that amount of spend (with various adjustments for inflation over the lifetime of the safe seating, and allowances for reputational risk etc.) The cost I've seen for Celtic's safe standing area was £500,000 for a 2600 seat area, so assuming the North Stand could be converted for a similar price that would mean you'd have to save a bit under 1/3 of a life over the whole lifespan of the seats for it to be justified. Considering the stadium's only 10years old, that sounds plausible, but it's obviously very difficult to quantify risks when there's a very small chance of it happening.

There are other grounds with much steeper slopes and narrower gaps between seats where I think there's a better argument for it than at the AMEX.

Edit: to be clear, that value per fatality is based on the value used by government departments, not a statement on how much football clubs value their supporters.

 

[faoileán]

A few passengers wouldn't be a problem. The thing that matters is having the 300 or so people who would enjoy leading The Amex atmosphere in a group clustered together - rather than spread out across 50m at the back of the NS.

Exactly this. I don't understand why people like Easy10, Studio150 and Drew are on their high horses about it, particularly as they obviously won't apply for a rail seat in the NS.

Anyone who was at the Swansea match on Wednesday would have heard how when a group can congregate in a cluster and stand they can belt-out songs non-stop throughout a match. There were about 100 of them, so multiply that a several times over and suddenly the Amex atmosphere would be much better.

 

[faoileán]

To recap my post: the current situation is a mess (and not just at Brighton). The rule is: no standing - and yet thousands do. The 'Standers' piss off the 'Sitters', the stewards sometimes try and enforce the rule but if the weight of number are against them they simply don't bother, and the authorities don't punish clubs where the fans persistently stand (which is every big club).

This has meant that 'de-facto' standing areas have arisen, such as the back two or three rows of the North Stand, but surely no one believes that this is a satisfactory situation? How far down can you stand? Can you stand in the ESL? Or at away games? What if you normally stand but this time you've got some old codger behind you with dodgy knees who can't stand?

As I said it was a mess. The Authorities have finally recognised this and now we have a solution; it is now possible to establish areas where fans can legally stand. However as we've seen from this thread the demand for standing areas is far from overwhelming, and I've no doubt if there was a poll of all fans the 'Standers' would lose. The club can then say 'no demand' and leave it at that. But there IS a demand as is amply demonstrated every match. So unless the North Stand are going to all sit down from now on we need a standing area so everybody knows exactly where they, er, stand. There is now no excuse to continue with the current situation, (at Brighton or anywhere else) and yes, if the Licensing Authorities have to give clubs a nudge then fine.

Excellent summary. Very well reasoned.

 

[faoileán]

I’m guessing you don’t do away games. Everyone stands. It’s not “a few” nor just the back rows. If it was, we’d all accept that is wasn’t a goer.

As I and others have repeatedly said, the questionnaire from the club was cleverly worded to get a negative response. They knew what answer they wanted and engineered it. A more honest set of questions might get a very different response.

Unless you sit in the North Stand and don’t want to move or stand, I can’t see why anyone would object. The North Stand predominantly stand up already, so why would they object if they didn’t have a seat to sit on?

I agree with all that apart from that the NS predominantly stand. I am normally WSU overlooking the NS but sometimes get a ticket in the NS, and from both perspectives it's a shambles.
There is the couple of rows at the back standing, a cluster under the screen and a cluster under the police box. And then random small bunches here and there. Scattered between all these are elderly people, those with young kids and those who want to sit, and it creates friction. If we created a designated rail-seating zone and enforced sitting elsewhere the problem would go away and we get the benefit of a better match atmosphere.

 

[Seasider78]

Personally I welcome the move by the authorities as ultimately it is better to have a choice for those that want it.

For our club I can imagine we would be very late adopters of safe standing, if ever. The club have been pretty strong about this, they put it to our fans there was no burning desire for it. Of course they will never say never but would have to be a pretty strong push for it from our supporters to force a re-think.

My feeling at the moment is there are far more people at our stadium who are enjoying their padded seat too much to contemplate a move to standing!

 

[faoileán]

Personally I welcome the move by the authorities as ultimately it is better to have a choice for those that want it.

For our club I can imagine we would be very late adopters of safe standing, if ever. The club have been pretty strong about this, they put it to our fans there was no burning desire for it. Of course they will never say never but would have to be a pretty strong push for it from our supporters to force a re-think.

My feeling at the moment is there are far more people at our stadium who are enjoying their padded seat too much to contemplate a move to standing!

But don't forget it would be safe standing in just one or two sections; everyone else can enjoy their nice comfy seat without random people standing and blocking their view...

 

[Husty]

But don't forget it would be safe standing in just one or two sections; everyone else can enjoy their nice comfy seat without random people standing and blocking their view...

This is the obvious point that most in this thread seem to be missing. It would be in the north stand, maybe the back half of it. We stand anyway. I can understand an argument its therefore not a worthwhile investment for the club, but I'm tired of the whole 'I sit in the ESU and I don't want to stand'. This discussion has literally nothing to do with you. Shut up.

 

[Seasider78]

But don't forget it would be safe standing in just one or two sections; everyone else can enjoy their nice comfy seat without random people standing and blocking their view...

Understood although point was that whenever Barber is quizzed on this he immediately refers to the complete lack of any significant response or demand for standing when the club engaged fans on this. So my point is whilst there are people on here saying they would like it unless that number become significant enough in size and voice we will all be staying in our padded seats.

The lack of response when the club engaged on then suggests the number of Albion fans who want to stand at the Amex is very small

 

[matski_98]

Understood although point was that whenever Barber is quizzed on this he immediately refers to the complete lack of any significant response or demand for standing when the club engaged fans on this. So my point is whilst there are people on here saying they would like it unless that number become significant enough in size and voice we will all be staying in our padded seats.

The lack of response when the club engaged on then suggests the number of Albion fans who want to stand at the Amex is very small

Its been mentioned before in this thread but a badly worded survey and poorly attended forum isn't a particularly good gauge to go on. A quick look at the North Stand on any match day will tell you that there is an appetite for this to happen

 

[faoileán]

This is the obvious point that most in this thread seem to be missing. It would be in the north stand, maybe the back half of it. We stand anyway. I can understand an argument its therefore not a worthwhile investment for the club, but I'm tired of the whole 'I sit in the ESU and I don't want to stand'. This discussion has literally nothing to do with you. Shut up.

100% correct.

 

[Seasider78]

Its been mentioned before in this thread but a badly worded survey and poorly attended forum isn't a particularly good gauge to go on. A quick look at the North Stand on any match day will tell you that there is an appetite for this to happen

Yes but Paul Barber is not going to go to Tony and ask him to invest considerable cost in installing the system on the basis people stand up in their seats. He is a businessman he will just leave people doing what they do now as it’s no additional cost to the club.

And for us fans he will say ‘I asked you formally and the response was non existent’

As I say it’s going to take a change of demand directly from the fans to the club to shift their position on this. If the fans standing in the north stand had any influence on the clubs thinking they would already be saying ‘we are looking at it as we see a lot of people standing at games’ but they are not they are running with the ‘we asked you and only a tiny handful asked for it’

 

[Moshe Gariani]

Yes but Paul Barber is not going to go to Tony and ask him to invest considerable cost in installing the system on the basis people stand up in their seats. He is a businessman he will just leave people doing what they do now as it’s no additional cost to the club.

And for us fans he will say ‘I asked you formally and the response was non existent’

As I say it’s going to take a change of demand directly from the fans to the club to shift their position on this. If the fans standing in the north stand had any influence on the clubs thinking they would already be saying ‘we are looking at it as we see a lot of people standing at games’ but they are not they are running with the ‘we asked you and only a tiny handful asked for it’

100% correct.

And Barber is also willing to argue "black is white" until the cows come home on the issue of whether a clustered group would result in significantly better atmosphere than the current set up with the standing fans spread out over 50+ metres and trying to start 3 chants at the same time....