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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)









Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
54,932
Goldstone
Without covering the old ground too much.

Assuming 1), 2) and 3) are correct.

Do you consider “Europe” to be a unified entity in which all countries are acting in unison? If so, under whose leadership would that take place, i.e NATO, EU or something else?

All countries in Europe are not acting unison. You still have Hungary, Slovakia and Serbia whose leaders support Russia. But enough of Europe is against Russia.


Can “Europe” push Russia out of Ukraine now, if not how long till it can?

I don't think we can know that, but it's not really the best way for Europe to defeat Russia.


What kind of size of army would “Europe” need, and what rate of casualties do you think it would sustain pushing Russia out, (dead and injured).

Europe don't have to go to war with Russia right now, so the public won't want to accept thousands of casualties. If Russia invaded the NATO countries, that would be a different matter, and Europe would defend itself, like Ukraine is, no matter the casualties. But the best way for Europe to defeat Russia is to provide a lot of weapons to Ukraine, to keep the pressure on the Russian economy, and to build themselves militarily so that Russia knows it's not going to win against Europe.
 


Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
15,879
Cumbria
That 'surrounding ' has been debunked many times I believe, and yet still no journo has the guts to call him out on it. Keep taking the easy pay check, US journos 🤷🏼‍♂️

I read somewhere that he had got angry with those in the media who were reporting that the encirclement was Russian propaganda, calling them 'sick degenerates'.
But he loves Free Speech.

It really does need to be asked of him again and again where these troops are and where he has heard this from. But he probably wouldn't actually answer.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
54,932
Goldstone
But he loves Free Speech.

It really does need to be asked of him again and again where these troops are and where he has heard this from. But he probably wouldn't actually answer.

It's pathetic. Anywhere that Ukraine or Russia manages to get an edge on their enemy, they will push it to the fullest. The notion that either side have surrounded their opponent, but are just going to sit back and do nothing, is preposterous.
 






cunning fergus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 18, 2009
5,047
Don’t take the piss as it makes you look a bigger prick than you already are. I have never said i was an expert, only that I have an interest and work in the industry.

Europe providing Ukraine with new kit will be more than enough to keep him in his box. It should address the shortfall if the US pull its support.

1 - 3 are correct otherwise Putin would be sat in Kyiv and you’d have run out of tissues.

The technological advances it kit and new technologies due to the introduction of drones makes number of ‘boots on the ground‘ an interesting question. i haven’t any idea but it should be remembered that occupied ukraine will have plenty of people who would support Ukraine. My view is that kit will be the issue rather than boots on the ground.
The wild card is Turkey and they really don’t like Putin or Russia.

He is just clueless 🤦‍♂️
So, “Europe” just need to backfill the kit and technology to the Ukrainians that the US is not going to supply going forward. The Ukrainians won’t need boots of “European” militaries on the ground.

You’re confident the European military industrial capacity can do this?

Presumably, this military support from “Europe” is going to be paid for by Ukraine………maybe by some kind of mineral deal?
 


Deportivo Seagull

I should coco
Jul 22, 2003
5,821
Mid Sussex
So, “Europe” just need to backfill the kit and technology to the Ukrainians that the US is not going to supply going forward. The Ukrainians won’t need boots of “European” militaries on the ground.

You’re confident the European military industrial capacity can do this?

Presumably, this military support from “Europe” is going to be paid for by Ukraine………maybe by some kind of mineral deal?
I once asked if you were naturally stupid or if you practiced. Must be natural ability as I didn't believe anyone could practice that much.

I said I didn’t know about ‘boots on the ground’ but that the changes in warfare and kit (drones) have changed the dynamic. That’ll be for clever people than me, you know, experts.

Yes I am confident that Europe has the capacity as it has some of the biggest defence companies in the world. It could be argued that they are under utilised and we should also ween ourselves of US kit.

Absolutely no idea how’ll it will be paid for but there has been talk of natural resources but they maybe just to piss of Trump.

Here is a question for you? how is Putin going going to take Ukraine after three years of ineptitude?
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
54,932
Goldstone
So, “Europe” just need to backfill the kit and technology to the Ukrainians that the US is not going to supply going forward. The Ukrainians won’t need boots of “European” militaries on the ground.

You’re confident the European military industrial capacity can do this?

Europe does need to cover anything the US aren't supplying, but I wouldn't say that's all they need to do. They need to build military capabilities that will put Putin off further attacks.


Presumably, this military support from “Europe” is going to be paid for by Ukraine………maybe by some kind of mineral deal?

It doesn't have to be paid for by Ukraine. So far, Europe has donated the aid to Ukraine, because it's in Europe's interests to do so. But a mineral deal involving the occupied territories wouldn't be a bad idea.
 




cunning fergus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 18, 2009
5,047
I once asked if you were naturally stupid or if you practiced. Must be natural ability as I didn't believe anyone could practice that much.

I said I didn’t know about ‘boots on the ground’ but that the changes in warfare and kit (drones) have changed the dynamic. That’ll be for clever people than me, you know, experts.

Yes I am confident that Europe has the capacity as it has some of the biggest defence companies in the world. It could be argued that they are under utilised and we should also ween ourselves of US kit.

Absolutely no idea how’ll it will be paid for but there has been talk of natural resources but they maybe just to piss of Trump.

Here is a question for you? how is Putin going going to take Ukraine after three years of ineptitude?
I’m just trying to join up some of your considerations.

Europe is not acting in unison, it is evident that the UK and France are considering more options, including putting troops in Ukraine. In contrast Germany, Poland and Italy have ruled that out.

It’s you that said Europe could push “busted flush” Russia out of the occupied territories if it wanted to. I doubt it’s that simple and I certainly doubt “Europe” has the stomach for substantive casualties, the UK in particular.

Similarly, if Europe is upping its game in both rearming and backfilling the supplies/technology the US is going to cease supplying someone will have to pay. I am not sure European economies are in strong order either. The politics of getting European taxpayers on board for that is not straightforward.

This country only paid its debt to the US for WW2 in 2006.
 




Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
15,879
Cumbria
I’m just trying to join up some of your considerations.

Europe is not acting in unison, it is evident that the UK and France are considering more options, including putting troops in Ukraine. In contrast Germany, Poland and Italy have ruled that out.

It’s you that said Europe could push “busted flush” Russia out of the occupied territories if it wanted to. I doubt it’s that simple and I certainly doubt “Europe” has the stomach for substantive casualties, the UK in particular.

Similarly, if Europe is upping its game in both rearming and backfilling the supplies/technology the US is going to cease supplying someone will have to pay. I am not sure European economies are in strong order either. The politics of getting European taxpayers on board for that is not straightforward.

This country only paid its debt to the US for WW2 in 2006.
What's your suggestions for the future?
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
54,932
Goldstone
Europe is not acting in unison

Like I said.


Similarly, if Europe is upping its game in both rearming and backfilling the supplies/technology the US is going to cease supplying someone will have to pay. I am not sure European economies are in strong order either. The politics of getting European taxpayers on board for that is not straightforward.

The alterative is that Europe doesn't support Ukraine, and that Russia expands its war to other countries. Hopefully you can see that that is not really an alternative. Europe will either pay now, or pay much more later.

What do you think Europe should do?
 


Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
15,879
Cumbria
From the Guardian. More spin from Trump and his gang.

1742249066521.png
 




cunning fergus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 18, 2009
5,047
Reading back through Cunning Fergus' posts, he asks a series of questions, each time making no attempt to answer them himself.

He thus sets people 'tasks'. I suspect he does this to waste people's time.
Not true, when people make some very bold statements then they are inviting challenge.

I have done so without being personal, merely providing a different view, which I think many people in this country share.

Many on here think Russia is out on its arse……..and maybe it is on its way to being on its arse, but I doubt it actually is. The news today is not indicative of a Russian Army riding into battle on horses……..quote unquote.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...ding-just-small-patch-of-land-nyt/ar-AA1B1VH9

I don’t celebrate this news, it is just different news to posts on here……..
 


Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
15,879
Cumbria
Not true, when people make some very bold statements then they are inviting challenge.

I have done so without being personal, merely providing a different view, which I think many people in this country share.

Many on here think Russia is out on its arse……..and maybe it is on its way to being on its arse, but I doubt it actually is. The news today is not indicative of a Russian Army riding into battle on horses……..quote unquote.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...ding-just-small-patch-of-land-nyt/ar-AA1B1VH9

I don’t celebrate this news, it is just different news to posts on here……..
What's your suggestions for the future - how do you think the issue can be resolved?
 


cunning fergus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 18, 2009
5,047
Like I said.




The alterative is that Europe doesn't support Ukraine, and that Russia expands its war to other countries. Hopefully you can see that that is not really an alternative. Europe will either pay now, or pay much more later.

What do you think Europe should do?
I said it before, the best conceivable outcome is an imperfect peace. That’s not great for Ukraine but would suit the taxpayers in Europe and the US.

The west buys time to rearm if it can afford to do so, and it’s what its electorates want. Rearming is not cheap and will almost certainly require a review of energy and industrial strategies.

Some countries in Europe may need to decide if they can afford to be military powers.
 


Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
15,879
Cumbria
I said it before, the best conceivable outcome is an imperfect peace. That’s not great for Ukraine but would suit the taxpayers in Europe and the US.

The west buys time to rearm if it can afford to do so, and it’s what its electorates want. Rearming is not cheap and will almost certainly require a review of energy and industrial strategies.

Some countries in Europe may need to decide if they can afford to be military powers.
What's an 'imperfect peace'? Do you mean sort of settling for the territories as they are now occupied. ie: a bit of Ukraine going to Russian?
 








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