[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[birthofanorange]

Yeh, probably I won't post details of the dreams I remember having as a teenager.

I'll add my name to those arguing, that we at some point need to face Putin or Putinism down and so at some point will need to accept the increased risk that entails. I don't want to fry, but I don't want to watch from over the street as a big guy beats up a little guy either. We should be ramping up the arms sales and ramping up the sanctions, which incidentally I believe are doing a good job. I'd love to see Russia decrease in economic strength and political significance as some of the nations quoted have.

I'm okay with most of that, but straying too far over the line could well mean curtains for us all, and that obviously includes Putin's Russia. He won't last forever....nobody does, so we keep supplying and supporting Ukraine in every possible way, as well as ruining their economy.
If all that fails, then we take it from there, but in the meantime, it's the best we can do.

 

[warmleyseagull]

I think people who think the West are too scared to engage, are mistaken. But we have to weigh up the potential consequences.

I believe as long as we mass NATO troops on the Russian borders, Putin will keep in line as far as aggression against NATO goes.

Once Putin has finished destroying Ukraine, that’s the key moment.

If he tries to encroach on NATO territory, NATO have to answer with such a crushing demonstration of force and firepower that Russia won’t wake up for millennia. We would need to hammer them back through themselves.

If we blink in that instant, Europe is lost.

As I say, if we get those troops in place on the borders, I don’t think Putin would dare. Show him strength or face the dire consequences.

Today's best news: Turkey has withdrawn objections, and Sweden and Finland will join NATO. 813 more miles of NATO/Russia border, 2 clever countries. Add this to Macron/Johnson loveshow yesterday and the conference has been an outstanding success to those of us who now realise what a shitshow runs Russia. Reading the brilliant Putin's People I cant believe how the West has ever believed the rise of Putin would end well. He has to be stopped now. End of.

 

[birthofanorange]

Apart from that, I’m a glass half full kinda guy.

 

[birthofanorange]

Stop worrying that we are poking the bear by supporting Ukraine.

I'm not worried about that at all, and if you can point me to where I've said otherwise, feel free.

 

[GT49er]

Russia is not going to annex the UK. It can’t even annex the bit of Ukraine right next to Russia where apparently the locals were all super keen on being Russian. If it wasn’t for nuclear weapons then NATO could take Moscow in a week while hardly breaking sweat.

So, Russia just obliterates London, and most of Britain, and then Putin says, "Ooops, sorry, carry on as you were". Putin is still raging that the russian empire (the USSR and the former eastern bloc countries) have rejected te tender care of Mother Russia. He wants to be the new Attila the Hun, Alexander the Great or whoever, and get it all back - with Knobs on. All those people wringing their hands about the evil British Empire should be able to see Putin for what he is. Some of them will sadly continue to prioritise pulling down statues....

Hope their fiddles are flame-proof .........................

 

[Eric the meek]

well the continued shelling and bombing for a start. Russia might be weakend but not really stopped their war. they arent getting far because of the resilience of the Ukrainians, not half hearted sanctions. Russia will tolerate a lot more hardship with a population uninformed and blaming the sanctions. happens every time, just entrenches governments, like Cuba, Iran, Venezuela, North Korea. doesnt really change their mind about their course of action. we cant not have the sanctions, they just arent going to resolve anything either.

The continued shelling and bombing? I'm glad you mentioned it ! Have you not noticed the frequency of shelling and bombing has slowed down? That's not due to Ukrainian resistance. These are long range weapons. It's due to the Russians slowly running out of artillery, munitions and missiles, and being unable to replace them.

The sanctions were designed to disable the Russian war machine, rendering it unable to repeat its excursion in Ukraine elsewhere. Apart from occasional high profile strikes on Kyiv and the odd shopping centre, the Russian war machine has ground to a halt ! The sanctions have worked.

Russia is now exactly where the Pentagon wants it. Bogged down in a war it cannot hope to win. Being weakened, and drained of cash, resources and morale by the day. The chance of regime change increasing by the day.

Meanwhile, the Pentagon didn't even have to flex its military muscle. Just its economic muscle.

 

[Baldseagull]

I'm not worried about that at all, and if you can point me to where I've said otherwise, feel free.

Your post #7617
"No, it wasn't being poked, but it currently is (and again, rightly so), and Putin is feeling it, too. The question is, how hard do you poke, knowing the potential outcome for all?
As I said earlier, it's a long game and yes, horrendous for Ukraine, but poking too far/hard too soon will do nobody any favours."

This looks to me like you have concerns that what we do in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, shelling of cities, rape of children, and threat of starvation in impoverished nations, might be too strong.
I would consider launching a special military operation in Ukraine, to remove Russian forces, not a war, just a special operation to demilitarise Crimea and the Donbass.

 

[birthofanorange]

No, I'd rather not. But there were many survivors of the blitz and Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Not odds I'd like, but neither do I want, ultimately, to become a colonial annexe of Russia. You choose.

"Not odds I'd like"?? Jeez, comparing WW3 to the blitz and Hiroshima/Nagasaki is like comparing an air pistol to an Uzi.

 

[birthofanorange]

Your post #7617
"No, it wasn't being poked, but it currently is (and again, rightly so), and Putin is feeling it, too. The question is, how hard do you poke, knowing the potential outcome for all?
As I said earlier, it's a long game and yes, horrendous for Ukraine, but poking too far/hard too soon will do nobody any favours."

This looks to me like you have concerns that what we do in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, shelling of cities, rape of children, and threat of starvation in impoverished nations, might be too strong.
I would consider launching a special military operation in Ukraine, to remove Russian forces, not a war, just a special operation to demilitarise Crimea and the Donbass.

Your post stated that I was worried about us supporting Ukraine/poking Russia.

#7638 "Stop worrying that we are poking the bear by supporting Ukraine."

Nothing above contradicts that and my concerns as to HOW FAR we poke, remain the same.

I have said all along that I support the actions we are currently taking (supplying weapons etc. and imposing sanctions on Russia) but I stop short of direct involvement, as things stand.

 

[wellquickwoody]

So, Russia just obliterates London, and most of Britain, and then Putin says, "Ooops, sorry, carry on as you were". Putin is still raging that the russian empire (the USSR and the former eastern bloc countries) have rejected te tender care of Mother Russia. He wants to be the new Attila the Hun, Alexander the Great or whoever, and get it all back - with Knobs on. All those people wringing their hands about the evil British Empire should be able to see Putin for what he is. Some of them will sadly continue to prioritise pulling down statues....

Hope their fiddles are flame-proof .........................

Very, very true. For too long, too many people have put ideology above harsh reality. Yes the past holds some stains on our history and where we came from, but trying to airbrush that away does not change the horror of reality that is happening right now. You cannot be the friend of tyrants and barbarians without risking becoming one of their victims.

 

[Baldseagull]

Your post stated that I was worried about us supporting Ukraine/poking Russia.

#7638 "Stop worrying that we are poking the bear by supporting Ukraine."

Nothing above contradicts that and my concerns as to HOW FAR we poke, remain the same.

I have said all along that I support the actions we are currently taking (supplying weapons etc. and imposing sanctions on Russia) but I stop short of direct involvement, as things stand.

There are risks to acting, and to not acting, in going too far, and in not going far enough. I worry more that we are not sending enough munitions or sanctioning hard enough.

 

[birthofanorange]

There are risks to acting, and to not acting, in going too far, and in not going far enough. I worry more that we are not sending enough munitions or sanctioning hard enough.

That's fair enough and I support more of the same - just not direct action - and with respect, that wasn't what you accused me of in your initial post.

 

[Icy Gull]

Some more sabre rattling. Who gives a shit where they'll hit first or what happens to the oil supplies, most of us will be dead and those that survive won't be needing oil for a while yet

It beggars belief that in the 21st century people like this are or have been in power

https://www.ibtimes.com/russian-law...nly won’t start from Warsaw, Paris, or Berlin.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

As before :

[Tweet]1505729378117988356[/Tweet]

 

[Igzilla]

The Russians really are full of s**t. "Withdrawn as a gesture of goodwill...", nothing to do with Ukraine shelling the island wih the longer range weapons the West have recently supplied then, oh no...

10:00 Russia confirms withdrawal from Snake Island

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/jun/30/russia-ukraine-war-nato-says-moscow-is-biggest-direct-threat-to-west-lysychansk-under-relentless-shelling-governor-says-live-news#maincontent

 

[Eric the meek]

The Russians really are full of s**t. "Withdrawn as a gesture of goodwill...", nothing to do with Ukraine shelling the island wih the longer range weapons the West have recently supplied then, oh no...

10:00 Russia confirms withdrawal from Snake Island

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/jun/30/russia-ukraine-war-nato-says-moscow-is-biggest-direct-threat-to-west-lysychansk-under-relentless-shelling-governor-says-live-news#maincontent

So Russia has to withdraw from a tiny island off the south-western coast of Ukraine, because it can no longer defend it from shelling from Ukrainians on the mainland.

This could be an - unintentional - admission of the inadequacy of Russia's military. It might be very significant.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The Russians really are full of s**t. "Withdrawn as a gesture of goodwill...", nothing to do with Ukraine shelling the island wih the longer range weapons the West have recently supplied then, oh no...

10:00 Russia confirms withdrawal from Snake Island

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/jun/30/russia-ukraine-war-nato-says-moscow-is-biggest-direct-threat-to-west-lysychansk-under-relentless-shelling-governor-says-live-news#maincontent

That is excellent news.

Invasion of Odesa is pretty much suicidal without air defence systems situated on Snake Island.

 

[Curious Orange]

That is excellent news.

Invasion of Odesa is pretty much suicidal without air defence systems situated on Snake Island.

More importantly, control of Snake Island by Ukraine should be able to open up the blockade of shipping from Odesa.

 

[Billy the Fish]

That is excellent news.

Invasion of Odesa is pretty much suicidal without air defence systems situated on Snake Island.

Yep, from what I've read this is huge news

 

[Eric the meek]

This is jaw-dropping.

'Snake Island move shows we're not hampering food exports - Russia'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61987663 10:14

'We've got more now from the Russian Ministry of Defence on its withdrawal from Snake Island.
The ministry says the move shows the global community "the Russian Federation is not hampering the UN's efforts to organise a humanitarian corridor to ship farming produce out of Ukraine".
It says the decision will mean Kyiv can no longer suggest that any food crisis and inability to export grain is "due to Russia's total control of the northwestern part of the Black Sea".
"Now it is up to the Ukrainian side that is still not clearing the Black Sea coastline, including the harbour waters," the ministry says.'

I must say that Russia does seem very keen for Ukraine to clear its waters of mines, doesn't it? Presumably this is for humanitarian reasons to get the grain exported asap. I mean, what other reason could Russia have?