[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

An interesting analogy - and similar to one I thought of earlier but decided not to post.

Let's say when you were at school a bully decided to pick on one of your mates and take his pocket money - a common thing in the 70's and 80's. Would you stand up for your mate or would you allow the bully to prevail because you were scared of getting punched in the face ? And I know it's a pathetic example !

For me, the answer is ALWAYS stand up to the bully .... you're next !

I can see it now. In a few weeks, Johnson will emerge, waving a piece of paper, declaring that 'Mr' Putin has promised to jolly well not invade any more countries, meaning we can buy his oil again and welcome his countrymen back into the International Fold.

 

[wehatepalace]

An interesting analogy - and similar to one I thought of earlier but decided not to post.

Let's say when you were at school a bully decided to pick on one of your mates and take his pocket money - a common thing in the 70's and 80's. Would you stand up for your mate or would you allow the bully to prevail because you were scared of getting punched in the face ? And I know it's a pathetic example !

For me, the answer is ALWAYS stand up to the bully .... you're next !

A better analogy would be, would you stand up for your mate against the bully knowing that the bully was slightly deranged and has weapons that could potentially kill millions and change the world and mankind as we know it.

 

[dazzer6666]

Also, I'd like to think that the UK is part of a secret conversation working out exactly when to militarise a response.

Unfortunately I suspect Johnson is simply delaying the full force of, er, sanctions*, till all his mates have got their money safe.

*The most jolly well severe sanctions, I must emphasize. World beating sanctions, in fact.

I’d be very surprised if this isn’t the case….along with special forces probably ‘advising’ on the ground already.

 

[vegster]

we should stop the pre-WWII comparisons. its not 1938, there are different factors to consider, and we have not sat back but launched significant economic sanctions on Russia while arming the Ukrainians.

These are indeed different times and the interconnectedness of commerce and trade should have rendered war in Europe to history .

NATO cannot get involved in this without major escalation so it befalls the West to either sit by or come up with some legal reason for entering Ukraine and actively supporting Ukraine in some other guise that Putin cannot spin to his people.

The sanctions are working but slowly and the Ukrainian military have fought bravely and cleverly against a Russian war machine that has been seen to be large but very poor quality in terms of men equipment and leadership. Russia cannot win a ground war in Ukraine using its current methods and loss of materials. So we wait for Putin to be replaced or him to up the stakes by using chemical weapons or hyperbaric munitions and leveling everything.

Its a horrible situation.. and it's all down to one short arsed little psychopath.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There's something about the current situation that makes me feel the existence of NATO holds things back. I'm not arguing here to get rid of NATO (??) but...
- if there were no NATO I believe some countries may have gone in with troops, or at least gifted jets, to aid Ukraine. Maybe Poland and the UK? Yes, Russia may have declared war on them, but then others would come in also: US plus... A gradual increase in the size of the battle against Russia.
- with NATO it's either all in or nothing (apart from defensive support and sanctions). And the 'all' seems too hard to decide on, so it's nothing...a clear playing field for Putin to commit atrocities

Replacing NATO is an extremely tough ask......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVsSUsqx9Yc

 

[usernamed]

get your factor 50 and marshmallows out.

I agree with them, if that loon starts WW3 we are acting with total moral integrity to stop genocide. Personally I think he'll bottle.

Right now the west is looking through the fence of Aushwitz in real time and is too worried to do anything less we get gassed as well.

This. We’re painting our inaction as “tactical necessity” when it’s cowardice plain and simple. I’ve been amazed at how many even on here are ready to just roll over “because Putin’s mad/unstable”.

His psychological ops teams have really done a number on us.

I’ve got plenty of skin in the game, I’ve got family, kids, people who I want to see grow up and find some happiness in a peaceful world where they have some opportunity, but if we’re all going to cower every time the tyrant waves his button about, there will be no real peace.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

we should stop the pre-WWII comparisons. its not 1938, there are different factors to consider, and we have not sat back but launched significant economic sanctions on Russia while arming the Ukrainians.

But there should be comparisons - sanctions were a non-entity in 1938. And let's point out that the current sanctions haven't prevented a single death yet. History works in circles - humans never really learn. Yes the weapons are different now - sanctions and god forbid nuclear weapons - but the principle is the same - get a nutter in charge, do nothing about his/her actions and you will end up eventually with war. The problem is that too many people are too gutless to confront this fact.

 

[dazzer6666]

Fascinating thread with a view on military tactics and action and impacts so far…….

[tweet]1501799537773531136[/tweet]

 

[Justice]

A better analogy would be, would you stand up for your mate against the bully knowing that the bully was slightly deranged and has weapons that could potentially kill millions and change the world and mankind as we know it.

Yes especially when you have the exact same weapons and the exact same threat. Putin is Russia obsessed he’s not going to want it turned into ash he’s bluffing and laughing at the west shitting it’s pants.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

we should stop the pre-WWII comparisons. its not 1938, there are different factors to consider, and we have not sat back but launched significant economic sanctions on Russia while arming the Ukrainians.

Thank god for that! I thought Europe might be in serious trouble. Now I can go to work jauntily, with a cheery whistle, and a cheeky smile for the ladies

 

[Razzoo]

Good old USA funding biolabs in Ukraine. What could go wrong?

 

[Gabbafella]

An interesting analogy - and similar to one I thought of earlier but decided not to post.

Let's say when you were at school and bully decided to pick on one of your mates and take his pocket money - a common thing in the 70's and 80's. Would you stand up for your mate or would you allow the bully to prevail because you were scared of getting punched in the face ? And I know it's a pathetic example !

For me, the answer is ALWAYS stand up to the bully .... otherwise you will be next in his line of sight !

Similarly, a few years back, I saw a lone guy getting a kicking from 6 bloke's. I could've easily walked past through fear of what could happen to me, but I stepped in to help. I knew at best I was probably going to get a kicking myself, but no way could I just walk past knowing what was happening.
As it happened, I got a couple a couple of lucky hits in which enabled him to get to his feet and we gave a pretty good account of ourselves.
Obviously not the same as what is currently going on but the principal is the same, can we really just stand back and watch?
I fully understand both sides of the argument in terms of do we intervene or not, there is so much at stake no matter what decision is made and I'm genuinely not sure what the right decision would be due to potential outcomes.
My heart says fight, I hate bullies and this wanker should've been put in his place a long time ago. My head says the cost of miscalculation is beyond comprehension and not getting involved is "for the greater good", but as others say, what next? Moldova, Georgia, Finland?
I'm glad it's not me making the decisions at the top.

 

[Uncle C]

Here's a question for you.

If a nuclear missile was shot down by air defence systems over the ocean, does it fall 'harmlessly' into the water, or does it detonate on the spot?

Thanks

 

[beorhthelm]

Thank god for that! I thought Europe might be in serious trouble. Now I can go to work jauntily, with a cheery whistle, and a cheeky smile for the ladies

how does constantly harking back to a failed policy from 80odd year ago, with different circumstances, actually help? to what aim, should we be deploying to Ukraine, or even invading Russia, what is it that we should have done in 1938 that we should be doing now?

 

[wehatepalace]

Yes especially when you have the exact same weapons and the exact same threat. Putin is Russia obsessed he’s not going to want it turned into ash he’s bluffing and laughing at the west shitting it’s pants.

Then it comes down to has the bottle to fire it first…..I’m not sure Boris or Biden has that bottle, but also won’t get involved for fear of poking the dragon, which leads us back to the original question.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This. We’re painting our inaction as “tactical necessity” when it’s cowardice plain and simple. I’ve been amazed at how many even on here are ready to just roll over “because Putin’s mad/unstable”.

His psychological ops teams have really done a number on us.

I’ve got plenty of skin in the game, I’ve got family, kids, people who I want to see grow up and find some happiness in a peaceful world where they have some opportunity, but if we’re all going to cower every time the tyrant waves his button about, there will be no real peace.

Also this.

As I said, I'd like to think there is a plan being hatched but I bet there isn't. Ruling out military action was a fool's move.

Civilians are being invited safe passage out of their cities, with the only destination being Belarus or Russia itself, and are then being shot at if they are sufficiently motivated to leave. Those that stay are eating snow.

This is genocide.

To what extent will sending, via Amazon, a box of flick knives to a city 400 miles away alleviate the situation? It will allow us to declare we are jolly well doing our utmost, of course.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

how does constantly harking back to a failed policy from 80odd year ago, with different circumstances, actually help? to what aim, should we be deploying to Ukraine, or even invading Russia, what is it that we should have done in 1938 that we should be doing now?

No, you're right. I can think of nothing.

We should just jog on and mind our own business.

 

[El Presidente]

True, but being left handed is a sign of the devil.

Harsh but fair.

 

[dazzer6666]

Similarly, a few years back, I saw a lone guy getting a kicking from 6 bloke's. I could've easily walked past through fear of what could happen to me, but I stepped in to help. I knew at best I was probably going to get a kicking myself, but no way could I just walk past knowing what was happening.
As it happened, I got a couple a couple of lucky hits in which enabled him to get to his feet and we gave a pretty good account of ourselves.
Obviously not the same as what is currently going on but the principal is the same, can we really just stand back and watch?
I fully understand both sides of the argument in terms of do we intervene or not, there is so much at stake no matter what decision is made and I'm genuinely not sure what the right decision would be due to potential outcomes.
My heart says fight, I hate bullies and this wanker should've been put in his place a long time ago. My head says the cost of miscalculation is beyond comprehension and not getting involved is "for the greater good", but as others say, what next? Moldova, Georgia, Finland?
I'm glad it's not me making the decisions at the top.

I suppose you can extend the analogy a bit…….it’s not one or two brave passers-by stepping in and risking a few bruises, it’s the school bully turning round to find the whole school, plus the schools from the other side of town facing him and all about to kick living crap out of him. Problem is he’s now pulled a knife and is threatening to kill the little kid who he was bullying if you touch him. Do you pile in and risk him killing the kid ?

It’s an impossibly difficult situation…….like you I’m glad I’m not making decisions.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

A better analogy would be, would you stand up for your mate against the bully knowing that the bully was slightly deranged and has weapons that could potentially kill millions and change the world and mankind as we know it.

You realise that the bully's apparent derangement is just an act and show the bully your equally destructive weapons and ask him if he feels lucky. You also make sure the bully's only Chinese friend knows they won't survive the conflict either.