[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Eeyore]

This doesn't sound good...

[tweet]1501660205381259271[/tweet]

I need some help here.

Why are there biological research facilities near the Russian border ? Why are the U.S funding them ?

Victoria Newland has confirmed that they exist at a senate committee. If they are only researching pathogens why are the US so worried about Russia getting their hands on them ?

Really concerned about this.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...ical-research-facilities-from-russian-control

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

On a more positive note, I've just received a PM from Swansman:

"Thickest, least fact based words of today-award goes to "I'm pretty sure he's lead to the deaths of many more people than Blair and Bush in Iraq"

Well done."


What a lovely chap. Couldn't he have just posted his views here? I really don't want a PM conversation with someone like that.


I think I'm right in saying that more people died in Chechnya and Syria (plus Ukraine) at the hands of Russia, than in Iraq at the hands of Bush and Blair's armies.

Glad to see you posting again

#holdingcarelesspoststoaccount

 

[Triggaaar]

You are not the only user to receive such PM's from him.

Oh, so I'm not special then. Well, not the good kind.

 

[Triggaaar]

Glad to see you posting again

Thanks, although I've only been posting on this thread, just because it's a huge issue I'm interest in (and I live with a Ukrainian and I find it useful to see some other views on it all - although some are a bit too extreme for me).

 

[The Clamp]

Oh, so I'm not special then. Well, not the good kind.

Sorry! But yes, good to see you posting.

 

[Baldseagull]

I need some help here.

Why are there biological research facilities near the Russian border ? Why are the U.S funding them ?

Victoria Newland has confirmed that they exist at a senate committee. If they are only researching pathogens why are the US so worried about Russia getting their hands on them ?

Really concerned about this.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...ical-research-facilities-from-russian-control

Where did you see that the facilities are near the Russian border, and that the US is funding them?

 

[crookie]

Where did you see that the facilities are near the Russian border, and that the US is funding them?

I'm guessing at fake news

 

[The Clamp]

I'm guessing at fake news

Swansman must have PM’d him.

 

[Eeyore]

Where did you see that the facilities are near the Russian border, and that the US is funding them?

I'm guessing at fake news

The US embassy in Ukraine.

https://ua.usembassy.gov/u-s-ukraine-partnership-to-reduce-biological-threats/

https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/ky...n-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/

I have expressed a genuine concern. Defaulting to fake news accusations doesn't help, especially when it is clear that US funding is in place.

 

[Baldseagull]

The US embassy in Ukraine.

https://ua.usembassy.gov/u-s-ukraine-partnership-to-reduce-biological-threats/

https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/ky...n-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/

I have expressed a genuine concern. Defaulting to fake news accusations doesn't help, especially when it is clear that US funding is in place.

Yes, US funding, not near the border with Russia though, Kiev and Odessa and mobile Covid testing units. There is nothing sinister about their existence on the face of it.
Have you linked the Chemical Weapons attack rumour, with the US having concerns of biological material in Ukraine being weaponised in some way by Russian forces? I think they are separate stories.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The US embassy in Ukraine.

https://ua.usembassy.gov/u-s-ukraine-partnership-to-reduce-biological-threats/

https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/ky...n-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/

I have expressed a genuine concern. Defaulting to fake news accusations doesn't help, especially when it is clear that US funding is in place.

I have read those links.


Maybe it is too early in the morning but I am seriously struggling to see where the problem is with what they report.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Yes, US funding, not near the border with Russia though, Kiev and Odessa and mobile Covid testing units. There is nothing sinister about their existence on the face of it.
Have you linked the Chemical Weapons attack rumour, with the US having concerns of biological material in Ukraine being weaponised in some way by Russian forces? I think they are separate stories.

Why does it matter if they are near the border anyway , even if they are.

A sovereign state can locate them where it wants within its borders.

It's not as if they are located in Salisbury, to take a random example, is it ?

 

[vegster]

I have read those links.


Maybe it is too early in the morning but I am seriously struggling to see where the problem is with what they report.

Disinformation and misinformation combined and mixed then given another spin to try to either destract or set up a possible reason for Russia to escalate again. They have been doing this sort of thing for years and its always worked and they have always gotten away with it. All because of the lunacy of one man.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

NATO cannot, must not, intervene. However hard that may be.

I agree but disagree. NATO is a defensive alliance and should not get involved. The West itself - probably the US, UK and France - should.

At the moment we're letting a bully get away with genocide and the destruction of a democratic country all for his own warped desires.

I've said it already but it has the air of 1938. We sat back and accepted Hitler's invasion of Austria ( and he then started to round up the Jews ). Our response - "You naughty boy but not our problem". He then invaded Czechoslovakia - our response "You're even naughtier but we'll leave you be".

In WWII, if we had dealt with the issue early on we could have saved millions of lives - and over six years of bloody conflict. Once again we're sitting back watching a dictator invade a peaceful country. What if he goes to Georgia next ? Do we do the same as we did for Czechoslovakia ? Maybe Moldova or even Finland or Sweden ? Do we sit back and wait for it to be a NATO member country ? If we do then it's no different to Chamberlain and "Peace is our time"..... and that worked out really well !

Nope, the time to deal with this is now .... and quickly before it gets worse - and that means military intervention not a few shoulder launched weapons.

First they came .... etc

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree but disagree. NATO is a defensive alliance and should not get involved. The West itself - probably the US, UK and France - should.

At the moment we're letting a bully get away with genocide and the destruction of a democratic country all for his own warped desires.

I've said it already but it has the air of 1938. We sat back and accepted Hitler's invasion of Austria ( and he then started to round up the Jews ). Our response - "You naughty boy but not our problem". He then invaded Czechoslovakia - our response "You're even naughtier but we'll leave you be".

In WWII, if we had dealt with the issue early on we could have saved millions of lives - and over six years of bloody conflict. Once again we're sitting back watching a dictator invade a peaceful country. What if he goes to Georgia next ? Do we do the same as we did for Czechoslovakia ? Maybe Moldova or even Finland or Sweden ? Do we sit back and wait for it to be a NATO member country ? If we do then it's no different to Chamberlain and "Peace is our time"..... and that worked out really well !

Nope, the time to deal with this is now .... and quickly before it gets worse - and that means military intervention not a few shoulder launched weapons.

First they came .... etc

I agree with every word.

Just as a matter of principle, does one stand back and watch a bully beat up a small kid, hoping that, sated, he won't beat up any more small kids?

No.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree but disagree. NATO is a defensive alliance and should not get involved. The West itself - probably the US, UK and France - should.

At the moment we're letting a bully get away with genocide and the destruction of a democratic country all for his own warped desires.

I've said it already but it has the air of 1938. We sat back and accepted Hitler's invasion of Austria ( and he then started to round up the Jews ). Our response - "You naughty boy but not our problem". He then invaded Czechoslovakia - our response "You're even naughtier but we'll leave you be".

In WWII, if we had dealt with the issue early on we could have saved millions of lives - and over six years of bloody conflict. Once again we're sitting back watching a dictator invade a peaceful country. What if he goes to Georgia next ? Do we do the same as we did for Czechoslovakia ? Maybe Moldova or even Finland or Sweden ? Do we sit back and wait for it to be a NATO member country ? If we do then it's no different to Chamberlain and "Peace is our time"..... and that worked out really well !

Nope, the time to deal with this is now .... and quickly before it gets worse - and that means military intervention not a few shoulder launched weapons.

First they came .... etc

Also, I'd like to think that the UK is part of a secret conversation working out exactly when to militarise a response.

Unfortunately I suspect Johnson is simply delaying the full force of, er, sanctions*, till all his mates have got their money safe.

*The most jolly well severe sanctions, I must emphasize. World beating sanctions, in fact.

 

[DudsFarm]

The Saudis don't seem to want to help, refusing calls from Biden. Who would want to support Newcastle?

 

[beorhthelm]

I've said it already but it has the air of 1938. We sat back and accepted Hitler's invasion of Austria ( and he then started to round up the Jews ). Our response - "You naughty boy but not our problem". He then invaded Czechoslovakia - our response "You're even naughtier but we'll leave you be".

we should stop the pre-WWII comparisons. its not 1938, there are different factors to consider, and we have not sat back but launched significant economic sanctions on Russia while arming the Ukrainians.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I agree with every word.

Just as a matter of principle, does one stand back and watch a bully beat up a small kid, hoping that, sated, he won't beat up any more small kids?

No.

An interesting analogy - and similar to one I thought of earlier but decided not to post.

Let's say when you were at school and bully decided to pick on one of your mates and take his pocket money - a common thing in the 70's and 80's. Would you stand up for your mate or would you allow the bully to prevail because you were scared of getting punched in the face ? And I know it's a pathetic example !

For me, the answer is ALWAYS stand up to the bully .... otherwise you will be next in his line of sight !

 

[raymondo]

I agree but disagree. NATO is a defensive alliance and should not get involved. The West itself - probably the US, UK and France - should.

At the moment we're letting a bully get away with genocide and the destruction of a democratic country all for his own warped desires.

I've said it already but it has the air of 1938. We sat back and accepted Hitler's invasion of Austria ( and he then started to round up the Jews ). Our response - "You naughty boy but not our problem". He then invaded Czechoslovakia - our response "You're even naughtier but we'll leave you be".

In WWII, if we had dealt with the issue early on we could have saved millions of lives - and over six years of bloody conflict. Once again we're sitting back watching a dictator invade a peaceful country. What if he goes to Georgia next ? Do we do the same as we did for Czechoslovakia ? Maybe Moldova or even Finland or Sweden ? Do we sit back and wait for it to be a NATO member country ? If we do then it's no different to Chamberlain and "Peace is our time"..... and that worked out really well !

Nope, the time to deal with this is now .... and quickly before it gets worse - and that means military intervention not a few shoulder launched weapons.

First they came .... etc

There's something about the current situation that makes me feel the existence of NATO holds things back. I'm not arguing here to get rid of NATO (??) but...
- if there were no NATO I believe some countries may have gone in with troops, or at least gifted jets, to aid Ukraine. Maybe Poland and the UK? Yes, Russia may have declared war on them, but then others would come in also: US plus... A gradual increase in the size of the battle against Russia.
- with NATO it's either all in or nothing (apart from defensive support and sanctions). And the 'all' seems too hard to decide on, so it's nothing...a clear playing field for Putin to commit atrocities