[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[danielson81]

Bit concerning Poland wants to leave it's planes it wants to give Ukraine at a US airbase, how will Putin interpret this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...27b8670ce87e491a0eea37&pinned_post_type=share

Edit: Just mentioned above

 

[Eric the meek]

I agree.

He's looking to me like a somewhat (but insufficiently) smarter Russian version of Raoul Moat.

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What is it about the bare chest? The bare chest while fishing? The knife big enough to disembowel a bear?

That's the kind of thing you might do in your teens. You know, before you develop a sense of judgement, that tells you that fishing bare-chested with a bowie knife isn't a good look.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I have a theory about these Migs being supplied by Poland (i'm in no way a man with military expertise).

I want to know why Luton's finest are travelling vis Poland?


I'll get my coat............

 

[atomised]

Seems the US aren't massively keen on Poland's idea re the MIGs describing it as not tenable

 

[Flex Your Head]

Seriously, how on earth did it get to the point where three man-child idiots, always keen to be phtotgraphed looking tough, or working in high viz and telling bare-faced lies, became leaders of three of the major players in world statesmanship. Sure, Trump's gone for now, but for how long? Have we all really been dumbed down that much?

Soz, vaguely tipsy and so full of so much to say. Probably best to wait though.

 

[Baldseagull]

Understood, but the crude reality is that justice is never even. And to reach the best available outcome you sometimes have to accept that you cannot have the best outcome. Sometimes in chasing the best outcome things are made worse.

Had I said to you, three months ago, that Ukraine was a politically divided nation that would achieve peaceful, and even prosperous, aims by dividing in some way. And then had I shown you the political map, you may have agreed with me. Had I explained the historical complexities about the eastward advance of NATO, and why Ukraine was a red line, some may have tried to understand more than resorting to the 'appeaser' jibe.

But then Putin did the unthinkable, something that we thought the US and allies were just bluffing and winding up over. Thus all of us joined the condemnation. But we are only doing what the world in general is doing. It's a human reaction. There is no justification for war. And shouting our hatred for Putin is not going to save a single life. The West is punishing Putin in the only way it can, weakening his position. Sanctions, heavy ones, was the best start.

But at some stage the reality of what was happening before his madness has to be addressed. Firstly to make it clear that, when taking characters out of the war, the original issues are being addressed. Secondly, in the name of humanity, to stop the bloodshed. How easy it is to bang the keyboard drums and watch others fight these battles, celebrating another tank being blown up or pouring over the stats to see who is winning. Come on, Ukraine !

But of course, ultimately our sympathy is with Ukraine, and the peaceful life that most of its citizens had before. The ordinary victims of a war which could have been long averted. And it is to them our duty, how ever much face is lost on both sides (and sometimes I wonder if Ukraine is a 'side' in this war or just the poor souls being forced to fight and flee it, to somehow hold their home and lives together).

As I said much earlier, I think Ukraine cannot join NATO, but has to have its own military. I think the Crimea and the East has to decide for itself. And I think, despite, it seemingly escaping justice, Russia will pay the price regardless for its aggression. I now believe this may actually come to pass. And God's speed to it. These folks have suffered enough while our keyboards burn with righteousness.

Don't think I would, the division has been stoked by Russia. Yes, NATO makes Putin nervous but so does the EU, it is having a state that might not align with his wants he doesn't like, and Ukraine had made the break.

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes. I hope Russian troops get blitzed. But we are going to come closer to nuclear world war than we have ever been

Except for in 1945, when there actually was a nuclear war

 

[Gabbafella]

I agree.

He's looking to me like a somewhat (but insufficiently) smarter Russian version of Raoul Moat.

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Something tells me Gazza won't be able to calm this ****nugget down with some fried chicken though.

 

[birthofanorange]

Except for in 1945, when there actually was a nuclear war

Was it, or was it a nuclear strike? Massive difference (and equally horrendous for those within it), but not a patch on what's to come, should this escalate much further.

 

[Baldseagull]

Except for in 1945, when there actually was a nuclear war

Bit different when only one side has them.

 

[herecomesaregular]

The two posters constantly posting Putin propaganda are a disgrace, and should have an immediate ban. Wouldn't surprise me if it was Mustafa, joining dates seem to overlap with his massive hissy fit. Even the absolute tin foil nut Swansman has reined it in on this thread, he seems to know his place.

There is no place for this pro Putin propaganda, at all. Anyone peddling it or defending it, is some kind of sick person.

Just catching up with my NSC reading. I'm happy to defend HeresWally's right to post on here and I don't consider myself sick, pro Putin or an appeaser. I've found some of his/her posts interesting actually and worth thinking about (note that does not mean I agree with them), and have viewed his links, because I am open to debate, hearing other people's opinions (even if they are then disproved and debunked by others) - because to get a solution to a problem I believe you need to hear things that you don't want to hear. And facts are not everything, you have to try to understand peoples perceptions to understand them (and thus to defeat them) whether you think they are bonkers or not. I feel that Putin's (and hence also perhaps many Russian people's?) perceptions are totally warped but I want to know what they are. The rants towards HW by you and others on here are unnecessary imho and i think it's a shame he has "flounced off" as people say as it lessens the debate. I do hope I don't bump my vagina on the way out (what a childish nonsense comment that was too). I pray there is not too much more loss of life on either side before a solution is found (with the exception of Putin who i hope stops breathing soon and Russia gets much better leadership in the future).

 

[Triggaaar]

I think it's getting there if that has been removed. Russia would never agree to it

You say 'agree' like they have a veto or something. If discussions had been done behind closed doors, and then it was announced that they had joined, then that would be it, it would be too late for Russia to do anything.

Russia needs to stop the demand to dimilitarise (I got the impression they hadn't mentioned that recently)

It's still part of their demands.

I've been lambasted for suggesting he needs to be offered a way out. I know it's not just, but the greatest injustice is further destruction and loss of life.

You haven't been lambasted for suggesting he needs to be offered a way out. The difficulty is what sort of way out would work for others. You can't just give him loads of stuff to leave, because then he'll just come back for more another day.

 

[Triggaaar]

It is a horrible situation to be in but war with Putin is inevitable now

Have you accidentally exaggerated your point?

War between Ukraine and Putin is already happening, so when you say war is inevitable you obviously mean us. And that's far from inevitable.

If it weren't for nuclear weapons, a war between NATO and Putin would be quite one side. But of course there are nuclear weapons, so a way between the two would likely lead to Putin being removed, or a worldwide nuclear war. And you think that's inevitable? God I hope not.

 

[Insel affe]

Was it, or was it a nuclear strike? Massive difference (and equally horrendous for those within it), but not a patch on what's to come, should this escalate much further.

Two Atomic strikes actually.

 

[Triggaaar]

As much as you say appeasement NEVER works, neither does victory.

That's an oxymoron. You can't have it that nothing ever works.

A multitude of things lead to WWII, which obviously constitutes a disaster. Once WWII started it's difficult to imagine anything would have ever appeased Hitler and I believe we'd have had much more death and much less freedom now if we hadn't fought and won.

 

[Triggaaar]

Was it, or was it a nuclear strike?

2 nuclear bombs were dropped during the war, so that's nuclear warfare = a nuclear war.

Massive difference (and equally horrendous for those within it), but not a patch on what's to come, should this escalate much further.

Certainly not a patch on what could happen. Whether it's Putin this time, or some other nutter in the future, it seems inevitable that we'll have a nuclear war one day that wipes out humanity.

Bit different when only one side has them.

Very.

 

[Triggaaar]

Two Atomic strikes actually.

Atomic weapons are nuclear weapons.

 

[birthofanorange]

Two Atomic strikes actually.

Yes, and does that make it a nuclear war?

 

[birthofanorange]

2 nuclear bombs were dropped during the war, so that's nuclear warfare = a nuclear war.
Certainly not a patch on what could happen. Whether it's Putin this time, or some other nutter in the future, it seems inevitable that we'll have a nuclear war one day that wipes out humanity.

Very.

It was not a nuclear war.

It is not inevitable.

 

[birthofanorange]

That's an oxymoron. You can't have it that nothing ever works.

A multitude of things lead to WWII, which obviously constitutes a disaster. Once WWII started it's difficult to imagine anything would have ever appeased Hitler and I believe we'd have had much more death and much less freedom now if we hadn't fought and won.

I agree, but things are so very different, now.

Have a nuclear war (yes, that involves at least two 'sides') and there will be no victors.

It's been said before that if it was a conventional war, NATO would most likely 'win'.

That isn't an option, anymore.