[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

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The Clamp

The Clamp

Well-known member
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Jan 11, 2016
26,210
West is BEST
Psychobilly freakout said:
I understand your comment and agree, but I am conflicted, in that he has to sound confident and have an air of bluster and showmanship about him during this whole nasty business, Putin already thinks we are weak, so we must have an air of confidence about us, even if we all know it is for show.
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I very, VERY reluctantly somewhat agree. I wish we had more to work with.
 




Boys 9d

Boys 9d

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2012
1,855
Lancing
My worry is that I see the parallel as being closer to Japan in the late 30s and early 40s where the USA instituted crippling sanction because of the war in China.
This led the Japanese hierarchy to believe their only option was to neutralise the American Navy so they could grab the products of South East Asia.
For Putin not quite the same aims but perhaps the same desperation leading to a catastrophic nuclear war.
 










A

amexer

Well-known member
Aug 8, 2011
6,851
Hamilton said:
I think we have to consider that the Russian attitude towards the death of a soldier is different to that in other cultures. Life is seen as collateral damage and the individual in Russian society is of far less value than the State. In the West, the opposite is true.

Russians would drop weapons on targets even if it meant that some of their own resources were depleted. This was very much the psyche in WW2 when troops were often sent into situations to die with little consideration. In fact, many Russian troops who were taken prisoner (and if they survived the Nazis) were treated very harshly on their return to Russia. Knowing such a fate awaited them, they would often rather die in battle than be captured.

It's 75-years later, but it does take a long time for ingrained cultural behaviours to shift.

Still, the numbers are unverified and it's a different age. I'm just sharing it as a perspective.
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In world war 2 Russian troops were ordered to commit suicide rather than be captured and many Generals were executed for not obeying orders. They have a different mentality
 


Here'sWally

Here'sWally

New member
Sep 27, 2021
118
Reading through this twitter thread, it does seem like maybe the risks of this happening have been known and warned about for some time, perhaps as far back as the mid 1990s. Including warnings from some pretty high ranking government officials in the West.

I said it in a previous post, but if you take a step back and look at this situation as a realist rather than an idealist, this probably could have been prevented with a little pragmatism and rationality.

[tweet]1498491107902062592[/tweet]
 


K

Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
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Jul 16, 2003
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Just had Sky on and the presenter was interviewing the Latvian PM, to be it seemed like she was coming over as warmongering, why are you not doing more? why are you not putting planes in the sky and boots on the ground.
 




Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
8,632
Here'sWally said:
Reading through this twitter thread, it does seem like maybe the risks of this happening have been known and warned about for some time, perhaps as far back as the mid 1990s. Including warnings from some pretty high ranking government officials in the West.

I said it in a previous post, but if you take a step back and look at this situation as a realist rather than an idealist, this probably could have been prevented with a little pragmatism and rationality.

[tweet]1498491107902062592[/tweet]
Click to expand...

In this instance, "realism" and "pragmatism" would have involved giving Putin everything he wanted. Sorry, but he'll keep coming back for more.

Unless we were prepared to trample of the sovereignty of Eastern European countries and basically award him the entirety of the former Soviet Union without their consent he would keep coming after them.
 




Ooh it’s a corner

Ooh it’s a corner

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Aug 28, 2016
5,557
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Kinky Gerbils said:
Just had Sky on and the presenter was interviewing the Latvian PM, to be it seemed like she was coming over as warmongering, why are you not doing more? why are you not putting planes in the sky and boots on the ground.
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I didn’t hear it but the Latvians I know(lovely people) HATE the Russians with a passion and logic sometimes goes out of the window when emotion takes over
 




Here'sWally

Here'sWally

New member
Sep 27, 2021
118
Nobby Cybergoat said:
In this instance, "realism" and "pragmatism" would have involved giving Putin everything he wanted. Sorry, but he'll keep coming back for more.

Unless we were prepared to trample of the sovereignty of Eastern European countries and basically award him the entirety of the former Soviet Union without their consent he would keep coming after them.
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All the predictions made over this situation and the dangers in Ukraine were not about the likelyhood of Russia expanding west. They were about the likelyhood that if we try to pull Ukraine in our direction, Russia will pull hard in the other, and the result will be bad for everyone, and especially catastrophic for Ukraine itself.

John Mearsheimer's words in 2015 seem particularly prophetic:

"The West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked [...] What we're doing is in fact encouraging that outcome."

As do Chomsky's in the same year:

"the idea that Ukraine might join a Western military alliance would be quite unacceptable to any Russian leader [it] is not protecting Ukraine, it is threatening Ukraine with major war."

At the very least, I am quite surprised that this is being treated as though it is happening in a vacuum, with little or no historical context being offered as far as I can tell. On the rare occassion that historical context is offered the response seems to be accussations of "spouting Putin talking points". It's quite worrying. There is a historical context to all this and chosing to ignore it isn't a healthy thing to do.
 


Igzilla

Igzilla

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2012
1,709
Worthing
How will Putin ever overcome resistance like this? He's done more to solidify the Ukrainian national identity than anyone else, I reckon.

[tweet]1498641832623890439[/tweet]
 






Eeyore

Eeyore

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Apr 5, 2014
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Here'sWally said:
Reading through this twitter thread, it does seem like maybe the risks of this happening have been known and warned about for some time, perhaps as far back as the mid 1990s. Including warnings from some pretty high ranking government officials in the West.

I said it in a previous post, but if you take a step back and look at this situation as a realist rather than an idealist, this probably could have been prevented with a little pragmatism and rationality.

[tweet]1498491107902062592[/tweet]
Click to expand...

I agree with this, and made a similar point recently.

Everyone is united in support for the folk of Ukraine, their plight, and their right to self defence.

But NATO are not the 'goodies' here. No political stakeholder is. It is more complicated than that. And no amount of media washing with 70s and 80s tubthumping convinces me otherwise.
 


Deportivo Seagull

Deportivo Seagull

I should coco
Jul 22, 2003
5,472
Mid Sussex


Bry Nylon

Bry Nylon

Test your smoke alarm
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Jul 21, 2003
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Playing snooker










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