[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Randy McNob]

It's great to see football united in support for Ukraine with banners and players wearing colours and T shirts

I also notice how silent the the voices are who said you should keep politics out of football during the height of the black lives matter protests and objected to players taking the knee.

How very curious

 

[portlock seagull]

Does Johnson never miss an opportunity to claim we are somehow leading the world on our response to the invasion ? It's genuinely sad that at an important meeting his post meeting speech is all about trying to puff himself..

What else do you expect from the prick?!

 

[portlock seagull]

It's great to see football united in support for Ukraine with banners and players wearing colours and T shirts

I also notice how silent the the voices are who said you should keep politics out of football during the height of the black lives matter protests and objected to players taking the knee.

How very curious

Yes, because ww3 about to start is EXACTLY the same.

 

[Baldseagull]

All the predictions made over this situation and the dangers in Ukraine were not about the likelyhood of Russia expanding west. They were about the likelyhood that if we try to pull Ukraine in our direction, Russia will pull hard in the other, and the result will be bad for everyone, and especially catastrophic for Ukraine itself.

John Mearsheimer's words in 2015 seem particularly prophetic:

"The West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked [...] What we're doing is in fact encouraging that outcome."

As do Chomsky's in the same year:

"the idea that Ukraine might join a Western military alliance would be quite unacceptable to any Russian leader [it] is not protecting Ukraine, it is threatening Ukraine with major war."

At the very least, I am quite surprised that this is being treated as though it is happening in a vacuum, with little or no historical context being offered as far as I can tell. On the rare occassion that historical context is offered the response seems to be accussations of "spouting Putin talking points". It's quite worrying. There is a historical context to all this and chosing to ignore it isn't a healthy thing to do.

Were Ukraine led down a primrose path or did they choose to walk it? I have some sympathy for the argument that the closer Ukraine became to the West, the more Putin would want to intervene, however Ukrainians indicated the way they wanted to go, their President went against that and moved towards Russia so they kicked him out. These warnings of the West "courting" Ukraine all ignore the attraction that Ukraine has for more Western Democratic connections. The real mistake was not giving Ukraine NATO protection as part of the deal to give Russia all the Nukes in Ukraine.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Interesting article.

Now watch this collection of videos of Putin walking. His left arm swings, but not his right. Is there something else going on?

https://www.indiatoday.in/newsmo/vi...dimir-putin-walks-this-way-1919350-2022-03-01

Have the Russians got a “weekend at Bernie’s” in them?

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Were Ukraine led down a primrose path or did they choose to walk it? I have some sympathy for the argument that the closer Ukraine became to the West, the more Putin would want to intervene, however Ukrainians indicated the way they wanted to go, their President went against that and moved towards Russia so they kicked him out. These warnings of the West "courting" Ukraine all ignore the attraction that Ukraine has for more Western Democratic connections. The real mistake was not giving Ukraine NATO protection as part of the deal to give Russia all the Nukes in Ukraine.

No, no, no. That's the WRONG TYPE of "historical context". Only the hard left anti nato context is allowed here. (And I just like this as a lefty myself)

 

[portlock seagull]

It’s important to remember that appeasement reflects the overall climate, not just the personal weakness of our elected leaders. From Chamberlain in 1938 to Boris today, the people get what they demand—for a while. The City and Wall Street reward politicians who produce attractive short-term results no matter how bad the long-term consequences are. There are few rewards and many penalties for the rare politician who tries to talk about the big picture and the long-term consequences of inaction. Hypothetical questions are dismissed as if it’s an unfair “gotcha” to inquire about the future. With no guiding strategy to stick to, democracies lose out to opportunistic dictatorships that can act much more quickly with no checks and balances or people to be accountable to. We cannot wait to act until after the catastrophe is under way. This “wake me up when they take Poland” attitude was foolish in 1938 and it’s even more foolish now because we have the lesson of September 1939—when Poland was invaded—and the six horrific years that followed, to inform us. At least Chamberlain didn’t have a history book to tell him what was coming.

Garry Kasparov ain’t wrong.

 

[Here'sWally]

Were Ukraine led down a primrose path or did they choose to walk it? I have some sympathy for the argument that the closer Ukraine became to the West, the more Putin would want to intervene, however Ukrainians indicated the way they wanted to go, their President went against that and moved towards Russia so they kicked him out. These warnings of the West "courting" Ukraine all ignore the attraction that Ukraine has for more Western Democratic connections. The real mistake was not giving Ukraine NATO protection as part of the deal to give Russia all the Nukes in Ukraine.

You are assuming that NATO protection would have been acceptable to Russia in that deal. According to those who know better than me, it never would and never will, ever, under any circumstances. Ever. Kind of Like Scotland or Mexico joining the Russian Federation would never be allowed to happen, however much those nations in theory would have the right to make that call. It would never, ever be allowed by the UK/USA, period.

I guess whether it was a primrose path is being asked and answered right now. If we are not, and were never going to be, willing to fight in and over Ukraine, we should have discouraged a situation which was predicted to lead to a fight like this. Because, it will result in the destruction of Ukraine, which is what was predicted, and what is happening. They may have wanted to join NATO, but I guess NATO should have said either, Ok and we will defend you to the death, or if that wasn't the case, we should have said that it wasn't a good idea.

As for the Putin walk stuff, I knew I had read it somewhere, apparently it comes from his KGB days.

"In the study, published online today (Dec. 14 [2015]) in the journal The BMJ, the researchers discovered that several other prominent Russian officials displayed a similar gait, which they say could also be linked to KGB training intended to keep a man's "gun arm" close to his holster, ready to draw a weapon at a moment's notice."
https://www.livescience.com/53094-russian-officials-vladimir-putin-gunslinger-gait.html

 

[Eric the meek]

Have the Russians got a “weekend at Bernie’s” in them?

Indeed. Sergei Lavrov gets up behind Vlad to manipulate his arms, only to find that the right arm is stiff with rigour mortis and comes right off.

Well old Sergei has been rumoured to want to retire. Now's his chance to top up the Maldivian tan.

BTW, I reckon the mob could take the Kremlin.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Yes, because ww3 about to start is EXACTLY the same.

Don’t feed the troll

 

[Baldseagull]

You are assuming that NATO protection would have been acceptable to Russia in that deal. According to those who know better than me, it never would and never will, ever, under any circumstances. Ever. Kind of Like Scotland or Mexico joining the Russian Federation would never be allowed to happen, however much those nations in theory would have the right to make that call. It would never, ever be allowed by the UK/USA, period.

I guess whether it was a primrose path is being asked and answered right now. If we are not, and were never going to be, willing to fight in and over Ukraine, we should have discouraged a situation which was predicted to lead to a fight like this. Because, it will result in the destruction of Ukraine, which is what was predicted, and what is happening. They may have wanted to join NATO, but I guess NATO should have said either, Ok and we will defend you to the death, or if that wasn't the case, we should have said that it wasn't a good idea.

As for the Putin walk stuff, I knew I had read it somewhere, apparently it comes from his KGB days.

"In the study, published online today (Dec. 14 [2015]) in the journal The BMJ, the researchers discovered that several other prominent Russian officials displayed a similar gait, which they say could also be linked to KGB training intended to keep a man's "gun arm" close to his holster, ready to draw a weapon at a moment's notice."
https://www.livescience.com/53094-russian-officials-vladimir-putin-gunslinger-gait.html

I realise it might have been a tough ask, but all Ukraine actually got was a treaty with UK, US and Russia all promising to protect it's borders, which it appears we and the US are not keen on sticking to if the invader is Russia. Russia got the Nukes, if NATO protection was not going to fly, then Military aid ensuring they had the might to defend their own borders was another option, but clearly the only real threat to Ukraine's borders at the time and for the foreseeable future came from Russia.

 

[A mex eyecan]

The centre taking in sick children and refugees

Myroslava Petsa
BBC News Ukrainian
Their city has been shelled with Grad rockets, hit by cruise missiles and air bombardment.

But life goes on for the children of the Kharkiv Hippocrates centre where they treat patients with the most serious nervous system conditions.

The centre is a hospice and a rehabilitation facility. Its head, Dr Roman Marabyan, had been called up to the army, so I spoke to his deputy, Valentyna Drokina.

She seems overoptimistic for a doctor stuck with her patients in a city that’s been seeing no reprieve from Russia.

In more peaceful times, the centre used to care for dozens of young patients from the Kharkiv region and north-eastern Ukraine.

Some children were orphans - their parents abandoned them in state facilities after learning their diagnoses. The centre’s nurses and doctors have become not just children’s carers, but parental figures. Other children usually had mothers by their side.

The war has brought all of them together.

“We are one family now,” says Valentyna Drokina. Her centre welcomes all abandoned children with life-threatening conditions and those with their parents who didn’t have enough time to flee Kharkiv.

Out of 21 children that are being treated in this facility, only three can walk on their feet. Valentyna tells me the centre’s professionals had equipped its basement so that the children could spend the most dangerous hours down there.

“When it’s needed, every adult comes up to the kids, each takes one child and runs with them to the cellar," she says.

Quote Message: "Children have no idea of what’s going on. They think we are playing with them"
"Children have no idea of what’s going on. They think we are playing with them"
The centre is home not just to its young patients and their parents, but also to the staff who work there. Valentyna says they even found room for three ordinary families who couldn’t find a safe place to stay.

“We are OK as long as there are no power outages.” She says the area hasn’t been shelled with Grad rockets, so they’re staying strong.

But then her voice breaks. She’s starts crying and adds:

Quote Message: My optimism is gone"
My optimism is gone"


From BBC News pages, heartbreaking, so sad hero’s feel this way

 

[essbee1]

FIA allows Russian and Belarusian drivers to compete. WTF.

I've sent an email to FIA. You f******g w*nking t*ssers.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

https://metro.co.uk/2022/02/28/russians-cut-off-from-apple-pay-and-google-pay-16187728/amp/

Russians cut off from Apple Pay and Google Pay

Apple have also ‘paused ‘ the sale of all their products in Russia (Sky News)

 

[danielson81]

FIA allows Russian and Belarusian drivers to compete. WTF.

I've sent an email to FIA. You f******g w*nking t*ssers.

Can't see Nikita Mazepin somehow being allowed in half of the countries that have races, let alone protests etc outside the circuits!

Plus his Daddy sponsors Hass (Uralkali) don't how those sanctions will let him pay US registered Hass !

 

[rogersix]

I think that's the first time I've ever seen him actually answer a direct question with a direct answer.

Boris must wonder what the hell has happened over the last couple of year. Of all the times to finally get your wish of being in charge, you pick a time when the whole ****ing world is falling to pieces.

and he never wanted to the job anyway, just the glory, shame

 

[Is it PotG?]

And he never wanted to the job anyway, just the glory.

Sauce?

 

[peterward]

You really are attempting to kock down paper castles -

1. you will note that I put the word 'protect' in inverted commas - Putin and the Russian oligarchs he represents have no concern for the ethnic Russians living in Eastern Ukraine - they are merely pawns in their geo-political adventures.

2. did you read the very first line of my first post on this thread? - Ukraine is entitled to self-dertermination without interference from an outside power - and Russia must be condemned for its actions

3. what is nauseating is your defence of the far-right and fascist elements within the Ukrainian political and military system. In 2014 Svoboda held the defence ministry and 25% of all the government ministries and Right Sector held the deputy National Security Chair (which controlled the police force). One of the leading lights in Svoboda at the time was the founder of the "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" and hailed the Holocaust as a "bright period" in human history. Far right and fascist elements continue to play an influential role in the Ukrainian military. The neo-liberial, pro-EU elements have re-established their dominance in Ukrainian politics in the intervening period, but they still accomodate the influence and involvement of the far-right and fascist elements within the political and military sphere.

4. It is nonsense to say the Ukraine does not have a military - it has 250,000 in its armed forces - the second biggest in the region after Russia - as well as 900,000 reservists. It has 1,000 battle tanks, Turkey supplied Ukraine with Bayraktar TB2 drones which it deployed against Russian separatists in the Donbass, Britain supplied Ukraine with 2,000 anti-tank missiles last month (and troops to train the Ukrainian forces in their use). The USA, among other things, supplied large numbers of Javelin anti-tank missiles. While nothing on the scale of Russia - it still has significant military capabilities.

5. It is also nonsense to say that Ukraine has no money - in 2020 Ukraine spent $4.3billion on its military. On top of that the USA supplied it with $1billion in military hardware in the past year - on top of $2.2billion that it supplied since 2014.

6. None of this takes away from the fact that Ukraine is entitled to self-determination free from outside influence and the Russians should immediately withdraw their forces.

7. It should be noted, for example, that the 5,000 NATO troops stationed in Poland, nor the American Aegis SM-3 Block IB missiles currently on-site in Poland have made Poland any safer in the slighest - in fact it has placed Poland at much greater risk as a result. Military power blocs exist to exercise political power - and that political power is wielded in the interests of the wealthy elites in the USA, the EU and Russia (and China).

8. It is extremely unlikely that NATO will accede to Ukraine's demand for NATO military intervention - to do so would in all likelihood provoke a global conflict with the possible use of nuclear weapons which would be disasterous for the global population and the planet. Furthermore, Russia is not capable, either militarily or politically of conquering Ukraine. It would be an enormous political, military and economic cost to occupy Ukraine - an occupation that would be unsustainable for any period of time - just as the US (and British etc) occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq were unsustainable. Putin will attempt to re-establish a pro-Russian puppet government in the country - just like existed pre-2014. The likelihood of that being sustainable for any period of time is also very much an open question. And throughout all of this the world will become more unstable, politically, economically and militarily - with working class people suffering the consequences.

9. The only real solition to this crisis is the building of a mass anti-war movement - globally, and particularly inside Russia. Not a pro-US, pro-NATO or pro-Western movement - but a genuine movement of working class people determined to act in the interests of working class people in Ukraine, in Russia and globally. Then and only then can tensions be removed and self-dtermination be secured by all involved.

10. you spout nonsense about Frenchmen in Brighton - while igoring the fact that British imperialism has been ensconsed for 100 years 350 miles away from Brighton, promoting sectarian division, collaborating with Loyalist muder gangs, indiscriminately shooting innocent civilians - and doing so to protect the interests of British imperial rule.

11. You say you dispise the 'hard left' - I dispise right-wing war mongerers who are willing to use working class people as canon fodder in their geo-political manouvres.I will continue to campaign for working class unity and solidarity - just as I have for the past 40 years.

Just knocking down your total BS

as for the rest TL/DR

enjoy the echo chamber

 

[essbee1]

Can't see Nikita Mazepin somehow being allowed in half of the countries that have races, let alone protests etc outside the circuits!

Plus his Daddy sponsors Hass (Uralkali) don't how those sanctions will let him pay US registered Hass !

If he is let in, then I can't be held responsible for my actions.

 

[1066familyman]

Radio 4, just about to start. 9.30pm

Ukraine: How did we get here?