[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Titanic]

I genuinely don't care. Just because I engage with this thread doesn't mean that I agree with everyone who posts here, or care what their opinions are.

I'm not Russian, but any fair-minded person will tell you that the last line of your post is racist.

You just carry on rattling your sabre, pal. I'm sure the Russians are hanging on your every word ;-)

Downed plane: Still unanswered questions amid Ukraine and Russia claims

Warfare can come in the form of battle or information control, and Russia has a history of brazen lies.

www.bbc.co.uk

There are shooting wars and there are information wars and countries that are fighting do battle on both fronts.
For the rest of us, it can make establishing facts very difficult.
But whilst that's true in this war as in any, it's important to remember that Russia specifically has a long history of brazen lies and disinformation.

It's true, the BBC says so.

 

[thejackal]

It's true, the BBC says so.

Haha yeah obviously!

 

[Eric the meek]

I genuinely don't care. Just because I engage with this thread doesn't mean that I agree with everyone who posts here, or care what their opinions are.

I'm not Russian, but any fair-minded person will tell you that the last line of your post is racist.

You just carry on rattling your sabre, pal. I'm sure the Russians are hanging on your every word ;-)

You cared enough to spend ten hours on a work day, trying to convince us that our opinions were wrong and yours were right !

Saying the word of Russians do not match their actions, is not being racist. Russia has a century-old military tradition of deception or 'Maskirovka', which has widened into society, media, TV, and even Russian diplomacy. Masking, camouflage, smoke, mirrors, denial, deception, distraction, false flags, the list goes on. Where have you been?

Of course I don't think you're Russian. But I do think you're like a cat on a hot tin roof.

 

[thejackal]

You cared enough to spend ten hours on a work day, trying to convince us that our opinions were wrong and yours were right !

Saying the word of Russians do not match their actions, is not being racist. Russia has a century-old military tradition of deception or 'Maskirovka', which has widened into society, media, TV, and even Russian diplomacy. Masking, camouflage, smoke, mirrors, denial, deception, distraction, false flags, the list goes on. Where have you been?

Of course I don't think you're Russian. But I do think you're like a cat on a hot tin roof.

Hold on there Chief.

I didn't spend 10 hours on here and, as I have stated previously, I didn't post on this thread to convince anyone of anything.

I am indeed aware of 'Maskirovka' but to suggest that only the Russians engage in such behaviour (and not us or the Americans, for example) is utterly ludicrous.

 

[Zeberdi]

NATO is a North Atlantic defence pact - in which article 5 applies to the North American and European continents including member state territory ( and naval vessels operating ) North of the Tropic of Cancer.

It absolutely does not need to redefine itself. It is what it is. It is not what it is not. Specifically it is not the military wing of the UN.

It is not a world treaty and as such there is no membership available to eg. Japan, South Korea or Australia.

There are a small handful of European countries which could could still join. eg Ukraine ! Obvious western European non members - Ireland, Austria, Switzerland, Cyprus, Bosnia, Serbia. As far east as Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. Part of Khazakstan even is in Europe so they could potentially join. Other than that only Mexico is eligible.

It does not have a wider world role and further "expansion" of NATO seems to provoke very loud criticism, although there are occasional musings about a new Pacific/Southern version ( not expansion) of NATO ( Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand etc. ) from time to time.

As for Trump.... he could indeed in theory withdraw the USA from NATO which would be significant. Whether he'd have the support for that in Congress ( who couldn't stop it, but could block his budgets if he tried it is a question for American pundits to argue and argue over ).

You didn’t really read my post very well did you? It’s nothing to do with the UN.

I know what NATO is - and what it is, is not working as well as it could in a post-modern world - Neither as a deterrent nor a properly funded fighting force, one that is equipped to defend every NATO member under attack - it makes membership very difficult- how many times does Ukraine need to ask?

The biggest threat to world stability is from non-State paramilitary terrorists and from dictators like Putin - the ‘war on terror’ constantly justifies itself as ‘defence of the US or UK’. The principle of ‘Collective defence’ does not work against an enemy that has no geographical boundaries if we are to believe that our current military engagement around the World, particularly in the Middle East, or indeed Ukraine ( to stop Russian aggression from expanding into NATO countries) - is in defence of the realm. NATO was agreed in a post-world war 2 Cold War environment with Russia that is very different to the proxy war world we live in today.

“Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine has shattered peace in Europe and is causing enormous human suffering and destruction. Russia is the most significant and direct threat to Allies’ security and to peace and stability in the Euro-Atlantic area”

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_133127.htm#:~:text=Euro%2DAtlantic%20area.-,Terrorism%2C%20in%20all%20its%20forms%20and%20manifestations%2C%20is%20the%20most,the%20Alliance%20and%20its%20partners.

 

[Eric the meek]

Hold on there Chief.

I didn't spend 10 hours on here and, as I have stated previously, I didn't post on this thread to convince anyone of anything.

I am indeed aware of 'Maskirovka' but to suggest that only the Russians engage in such behaviour (and not us or the Americans, for example) is utterly ludicrous.

The time period over which you tried to convince us, was ten hours.

I didn't suggest anything about other nationalities.

 

[Titanic]

That's probably enough.... let's try and keep it civil.

 

[thejackal]

The time period over which you tried to convince us, was ten hours.

As I have stated repeatedly, I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything. You're never going to let go of that one, are you?

I didn't suggest anything about other nationalities.

I think the tone of your your post would suggest otherwise but I'm willing to accept this on face value.

However, I am very happy with your cat analogy. I'm a cat lover so any comparison to cats is fine by me.

 

[jcdenton08]

Putin’s a right bastard and I wish he was dead. Am I still allowed to say that? And he has saggy man tits.

 

[chickens]

Putin’s a right bastard and I wish he was dead. Am I still allowed to say that? And he has saggy man tits.

No arguments from this quarter. All rings true to me.

 

[Eric the meek]

As I have stated repeatedly, I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything. You're never going to let go of that one, are you?

I think the tone of your your post would suggest otherwise but I'm willing to accept this on face value.

However, I am very happy with your cat analogy. I'm a cat lover so any comparison to cats is fine by me.

Thank goodness you've calmed down.

Fair warning: be prepared to be shocked by the extent of Russian disinformation.

'We are not going to invade Ukraine'.
'We are not abducting children. We are taking them to Russia to keep them safe'.
'The A-50 was shot down by friendly fire'.

I believe there are other examples.

 

[sparkie]

You didn’t really read my post very well did you? It’s nothing to do with the UN.

I know what NATO is - and what it is, is not working as well as it could in a post-modern world - Neither as a deterrent nor a properly funded fighting force, one that is equipped to defend every NATO member under attack - it makes membership very difficult- how many times does Ukraine need to ask?

The biggest threat to world stability is from non-State paramilitary terrorists and from dictators like Putin - the ‘war on terror’ constantly justifies itself as ‘defence of the US or UK’. The principle of ‘Collective defence’ does not work against an enemy that has no geographical boundaries if we are to believe that our current military engagement around the World, particularly in the Middle East, or indeed Ukraine ( to stop Russian aggression from expanding into NATO countries) - is in defence of the realm. NATO was agreed in a post-world war 2 Cold War environment with Russia that is very different to the proxy war world we live in today.

“Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine has shattered peace in Europe and is causing enormous human suffering and destruction. Russia is the most significant and direct threat to Allies’ security and to peace and stability in the Euro-Atlantic area”

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_133127.htm#:~:text=Euro%2DAtlantic%20area.-,Terrorism%2C%20in%20all%20its%20forms%20and%20manifestations%2C%20is%20the%20most,the%20Alliance%20and%20its%20partners.

I do actually agree with you here.

 

[thejackal]

Thank goodness you've calmed down.

Fair warning: be prepared to be shocked by the extent of Russian disinformation.

'We are not going to invade Ukraine'.
'We are not abducting children. We are taking them to Russia to keep them safe'.
'The A-50 was shot down by friendly fire'.

I believe there are other examples.

Calmed down? What on earth are you on about pal?

I think you're just on a wind-up now so I will attempt to leave you to your back-pedalling. I tried to be gracious about it

Some of us have work to do today!

 

[Titanic]

Which bit of enough wasn't clear? No more warnings, thread bans are next.

 

[Eric the meek]

There's been another Ukraine attack on an oil terminal, this time at Tuapse in the Black Sea:

Ukraine-Russia war: Putin visits Kaliningrad exclave

Vladimir Putin has flown to Kaliningrad amid warnings of arms build ups in Russia’s Baltic exclave.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Mellotron]

There's been another Ukraine attack on an oil terminal, this time at Tuapse in the Black Sea:

Ukraine-Russia war: Putin visits Kaliningrad exclave

Vladimir Putin has flown to Kaliningrad amid warnings of arms build ups in Russia’s Baltic exclave.

www.telegraph.co.uk

I don't know if it's just me drifting in and out of following, but it seems like these sorts of insurgent attacks are increasing in frequency?

 

[seagullwedgee]

Yes, get in Ukraine score another big infrastructure hit. Obviously hope no collateral human loss, but elated to see the Russian infrastructure smashed to smithereens.

 

[raymondo]

"Moderate Republican congressman Dan Crenshaw has criticised Maga Republicans not willing to work with Biden on border security and Ukraine aid. Crenshaw told MSNBC that some Republicans were saying “we’ll never vote for it if it’s attached to Ukraine aid. Really? We get meaningful border policy with the Ukraine aid and you’re not going to vote for that? You want Russia to win more than you want border policy changes? Some people say Biden wants it now because it’s helpful to him politically? OK! I want border security, that’s what I told my constituents I would do for them. So if we can get that deal, that’s a no-brainer.”

From the Guardian yesterday...some of the shenanigan discussions in the US.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

I genuinely don't care. Just because I engage with this thread doesn't mean that I agree with everyone who posts here, or care what their opinions are.

I'm not Russian, but any fair-minded person will tell you that the last line of your post is racist.

You just carry on rattling your sabre, pal. I'm sure the Russians are hanging on your every word ;-)

Grow up.

 

[Mellotron]

I don't know if it's just me drifting in and out of following, but it seems like these sorts of insurgent attacks are increasing in frequency?

I'm sure someone will be along at some point to patronisingly tell me that this actually proves that Russia is winning, and I'm triggered (and probably woke as well, that usually gets thrown in) for thinking otherwise.