[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Motogull]

This discussion is really good. [MENTION=13230]Psychobilly freakout[/MENTION] is absolutely right. The Ukrainians are playing the long game. Perhaps they are not explicitly going for regime change in Moscow, but they are going for maximum exposure to Russian wrongdoing, and the cost of it to ordinary Russians. '

Plus an element of maintaining the moral high ground.

This has been an unmitigated disaster for Putin. The mental power crazed kunnt.

 

[essbee1]

Plus an element of maintaining the moral high ground.

This has been an unmitigated disaster for Putin. The mental power crazed kunnt.

The day that that pri*k puts a bullet through his head or someone kindly does it for us, I'm
going down the boozer and raising a pint to it.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

This discussion is really good. [MENTION=13230]Psychobilly freakout[/MENTION] is absolutely right. The Ukrainians are playing the long game. Perhaps they are not explicitly going for regime change in Moscow, but they are going for maximum exposure to Russian wrongdoing, and the cost of it to ordinary Russians.

Take a look at two examples from yesterday of how they are playing that game.

'Ukraine army releases 'war criminal' deck of cards'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61404062 22:02 13 May

A simple way of keeping the names and pictures of the war criminals in the public eye, and those war criminals on the back foot.


'Ukraine returns bodies of dead soldiers to Russia'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61404062 22:22 13 May

Thousands of dead bodies arriving in Russia on refrigerated trains is not a good look for the 'special military operation', won't be easy to cover up, and will be at odds with official numbers of Russian deaths.


'

Putin is surely the Ace of Spades in that deck.

 

[portlock seagull]

The aim is not to appease Putin, it is too appeal to the masses of Russians who are fed propaganda day and night, if we want a regime change clearing out the old guard, we need the Russian everyday folk to be behind change, seek change and know the truth about what is actually going on. The Ukraine is being very smart in this by not going for the death penalty, It is the long game.

Let’s hope Ukraine around long enough to play the long game and Putin doesn’t get itchy fingers

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Good news that the Russian invasion at Kharkiv has collapsed.

In a comedy twist, forces from the so-called Peoples' Republic of Donetsk were prevented from retreating into Russia by Russian border control. I guess they didn't have the necessary visas lol.

 

[Mackenzie]

Good result for Ukraine in Eurovision, I wonder if Putin was watching

 

[Wardy's twin]

Just when you thought Putin's claims couldn't any more unbelievable:

'Putin accuse Ukraine of blocking talks'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61404062 12:05

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has told the German chancellor that it is Kyiv and not Moscow which is blocking peace talks.
The Kremlin's readout of the telephone conversation with Olaf Scholz came just before Ukraine's Foreign Minister Dmitry Kuleba - who is currently in Germany - told reporters he felt Russia didn't have the appetite for either peace or security talks.
Putin's conversation with Scholz also saw him repeat his justification for the invasion - which is referred to as "a special military operation" - and claim the civilians hiding in the steelworks in Mariupol were being held by Ukrainian forces.
The civilians had taken cover in the steelworks to hide from attacks on the city by Russia.

laim the civilians hiding in the steelworks in Mariupol were being held by Ukrainian forces. - My understanding is that a number of the civilians are relatives of the soldiers who know (or thought they knew) that their presence there my put off the very worst excesses.

 

[ShandyH]

I think it is commendable and also the smart thing to do, Ukraine are playing the long game, the last thing you want is Russians back home seeing their young soldiers hanging from a rope or being lined up blindfolded and shot on tv, with god knows what propaganda behind the images, probably something along the lines of “Ukrainian Nazis hang young innocent freedom fighters on a special mission”. Now that would probably & sadly stir national patriotic rhetoric and backing for an escalation of action from Putin, giving him further excuses to up the anti.

I am not saying those found guilty don’t deserve execution, but it’s the smart thing not too.

in my humble uneducated opinion

I am uncomfortable with the blood thirsty solutions to an already bloody war.

Yes, Russian soldiers have behaved in despicable ways. But the Russian soldier currently on trial is 21 years old. This murderous behaviour is not of his making. He has been emboldened by appalling misinformation, propaganda and a nationalistic fervour he’s not old enough to understand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I am uncomfortable with the blood thirsty solutions to an already bloody war.

Yes, Russian soldiers have behaved in despicable ways. But the Russian soldier currently on trial is 21 years old. This murderous behaviour is not of his making. He has been emboldened by appalling misinformation, propaganda and a nationalistic fervour he’s not old enough to understand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I read a harrowing article last week about a woman in her 40s who was raped and witnessed her neighbour’s murder. Both these crimes were carried out by a 19 year old who also told her he had a girlfriend back in Russia. He understood perfectly well what he was doing as would any 19 year old anywhere. To excuse it on the grounds of age is insulting to Ukrainian women and women everywhere who have suffered in similar fashion. I know that is not your intention but that is the consequence of making age in any way relevant.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I am uncomfortable with the blood thirsty solutions to an already bloody war.

Yes, Russian soldiers have behaved in despicable ways. But the Russian soldier currently on trial is 21 years old. This murderous behaviour is not of his making. He has been emboldened by appalling misinformation, propaganda and a nationalistic fervour he’s not old enough to understand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If he has any legal defence then he can present his evidence at court. For instance in theory a mental condition leading to diminished responsibility could have some merit.

As far as I am aware "just following orders" doesn't tend to carry much weight in war crimes trials.

 

[essbee1]

I am uncomfortable with the blood thirsty solutions to an already bloody war.

Yes, Russian soldiers have behaved in despicable ways. But the Russian soldier currently on trial is 21 years old. This murderous behaviour is not of his making. He has been emboldened by appalling misinformation, propaganda and a nationalistic fervour he’s not old enough to understand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And you're saying that by 21, you still don't know the difference between right and wrong irrespective of how much misinformation you've been fed? Utter bollox.

 

[ShandyH]

And you're saying that by 21, you still don't know the difference between right and wrong irrespective of how much misinformation you've been fed? Utter bollox.

Granted, poorly worded. What I’m saying is that the barbaric behaviour of the Russian army comes from the very top. Win at all costs. The enemy are animals etc. That heavily entrenched indoctrination has surely had some influence in these cases. And of course I knew the difference between right and wrong at 21. I’m not apologising for these actions. These individuals should be locked up for decades. But is it coincidence the quoted actions are from a 21 year-old and a 19 year-old? The culture appears to be in the Russian army that there are no rules to war. At all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[essbee1]

Granted, poorly worded. What I’m saying is that the barbaric behaviour of the Russian army comes from the very top. Win at all costs. The enemy are animals etc. That heavily entrenched indoctrination has surely had some influence in these cases. And of course I knew the difference between right and wrong at 21. I’m not apologising for these actions. These individuals should be locked up for decades. But is it coincidence the quoted actions are from a 21 year-old and a 19 year-old? The culture appears to be in the Russian army that there are no rules to war. At all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair enough Shandy.

 

[Eric the meek]

Good result for Ukraine in Eurovision, I wonder if Putin was watching

'The Russian Federation should disregard the huge consensus support for Ukraine from the television votes across 40 unfriendly Eurovision countries.
This is obviously fake news, carefully choreographed by the west.
P.S. This is confirmation that my special military operation is going exactly according to plan'. - Vlad the soon to be under anaesthetic.

 

[jakarta]

The culture appears to be in the Russian army that there are no rules to war. At all.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Which also happened in 1944-45 in Poland and Germany via Uncle Joe's loveable Red Army...

 

[KZNSeagull]

BBC strapline: UK Intell suggests that 1/3 of Russian ground forces have been lost since start of invasion. Extraordinary if true.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Granted, poorly worded. What I’m saying is that the barbaric behaviour of the Russian army comes from the very top. Win at all costs. The enemy are animals etc. That heavily entrenched indoctrination has surely had some influence in these cases. And of course I knew the difference between right and wrong at 21. I’m not apologising for these actions. These individuals should be locked up for decades. But is it coincidence the quoted actions are from a 21 year-old and a 19 year-old? The culture appears to be in the Russian army that there are no rules to war. At all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Irrelevant to these women;

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/ukra...ay-russian-soldiers-must-be-punished-12613584

 

[portlock seagull]

Granted, poorly worded. What I’m saying is that the barbaric behaviour of the Russian army comes from the very top. Win at all costs. The enemy are animals etc. That heavily entrenched indoctrination has surely had some influence in these cases. And of course I knew the difference between right and wrong at 21. I’m not apologising for these actions. These individuals should be locked up for decades. But is it coincidence the quoted actions are from a 21 year-old and a 19 year-old? The culture appears to be in the Russian army that there are no rules to war. At all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s their culture, Russians have been scorching earth and torturing captured enemies and civilians since at least Napoleonic times. Russians value life less than the West. They are more brutalised, more repressed, more lied to etc and always have been. They have form too, just look at the millions (millions!) of German women they raped as victors in 45. Sanctioned from the top downwards. You can to a degree stereotype nations. Russians have their dark reputation for good reason. They have no shame because they have no self awareness, largely due to their isolated nature, domestically and internationally over many centuries. A less desirable nation to share a hotel pool with on holiday I cannot think of. And that includes us!

 

[portlock seagull]

BBC strapline: UK Intell suggests that 1/3 of Russian ground forces have been lost since start of invasion. Extraordinary if true.

Meaningless though because Russia can and always has been able to afford off enormous losses comparably because a) their vastness b) total repression of anyone daring to question. As has always been the case for centuries. There’s a reason Russia lost more than any other nation except China during WW2 and it’s not all down to German barbarism. Much can be attributed to Stalin, whose callous strategies and tactics cost millions of soviet lives. 1 death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic and all that.

 

[The Clamp]

There are no mitigating circumstances for rape.
There are no mitigating circumstances for murdering innocent people.

Hang the ****ers.